Too Negative?
by bobestes on May 15, 2007 10:30 PM EDT
51 comments
C.Trent had an interesting comment in his latest game thread:
red scoop, fans are even more negative in cincinnati than anywhere else i've lived -- and i've lived all over the place -- including the atlanta area.
This was in response to an earlier post criticizing Junior for joking around too much, in light of the team's recent struggles.
So what do y'all think? Are fans in Cincinnati more negative than anywhere else? If so, why and how?
0 recs |
51 comments
Email
Print
Comments
not even close
The Reds fans just want the team to be competitive and give a solid effort all season long.
by Caleb on May 15, 2007 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If Red Reporter is any indication
However, compared to those markets Caleb listed, Cincy fans are friggin Polyanna.
by boohiss on May 15, 2007 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NO
by Paul Householder on May 15, 2007 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
double negative
by BobbyO on May 16, 2007 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just the Broadcast Team.
I am actually starting to appreciate Grande after hearing everyone else try their hand at the FSN gig. Thom and Grande coming up is going to be REAL interesting.
by snohio on May 15, 2007 11:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I have made a point not to listen to a word of Marty yet this year because he has become so negative. I can see how bad the Reds are playing, I don't need to hear it. I have no problem with any player who gives 700 wlw the cold shoulder, they deserve it.
Oh, even when the Reds are in the cellar I hope Junior, Dunn, and the rest of the gang can crack a smile. I don't want clubhouse chemistry to bomb because the bullpen has dropped a few.
by rose2hall on May 16, 2007 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know where he's lived
by ctnyc on May 15, 2007 11:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't say for sure..
I like C Trent's blog but I think that he may be "falling for" the guys he chews the fat with everyday in the clubhouse (which is probably pretty easy to do... especiallly if they're playing the part of the "hard luck losers") and because of the critical-yet-informed nature of the blogosphere he may just be having a hard time separating trees fom the forest.
by Alan on May 16, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's a young beat writer
The old salty dogs like McCoy and others don't give a damn what guys like Jr. think about them.
Fay is like Ralph Wiggams, over in the corner eating glue.
by bobestes on May 16, 2007 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when
Yes, Cinci fans can be negative, and they can definitely be critical. Dunn is a good example of a player that gets a lot of negativity thrown his way, fairly or not. Dunn is a pretty unique player though. Griffey gets a lot of negativity too, but that's due to misfortune more than anything. We got an All-Century player, who then got all types of injuries and didn't translate to much success for the team on the field. The starting pitching, and now the bullpen have been pretty atrocious this decade.
Cincy loves certain players though. They like hustle, epitomized by Rose, Freel, and everyone complaining when someone doesn't run out to their position. And like everyone else, they like winners. Eric Davis, Barry Larkin, Johnny Bench, Jose Rijo, the Nasty Boys... these are all legends. Not to mention site favorites like Paul Householder, Rolando Roomes, Vada Pinson, Kal Daniels, and even Bubba Crosby.
We demand competitiveness, and we want to win. If you do that, chances are good the Reds nation will embrace you, and we won't be quick to let go (see how long it's taken folks here to finally get sick of Rose). We boo because we care, which is more than I can say for anyone in Atlanta.
by Brendanukkah on May 16, 2007 1:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You'd better run to your position..
by Alan on May 16, 2007 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think frustrated is a better word
by justin0070000 on May 16, 2007 2:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
on this site, it's true
by nighthawk32 on May 16, 2007 8:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yes
i wrote about it here.
by Daedalus on May 16, 2007 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Passion loves company.
by Madville on May 16, 2007 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As usual
What people like C. and nighthawk see as negativity is really criticism (at least on this site).
Negativity is "Dunn Sucks! Dunn Sucks! Dunn Sucks!"; criticism both points out what's wrong, and gives reasoned points as to why. The problem is that there are so many bad decisions being made by the front office and manager that all you read/hear is what's wrong.
The tone of this board would change drastically if there was a hint at a plan for the team, or even if the pieces being assembled made some sense at some level. But as long as catchers and 40 year old relievers are being stockpiled, and as long as every other player is getting blamed for the failures of those catchers and relievers, you're going to hear alot of criticism.
by sidnancy on May 16, 2007 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well said
For those that think this site is too negative, rather than just bitching about the negativity, why don't you call people on it. If someone says something that you think is wrong, tell them why. That's the whole point of the site.
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Negativity
Not to mention that people seem to hold it against him that he's had probably the worst luck with injuries of any ballplayer I've ever seen.
by bobestes on May 16, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think this is a general
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
by bobestes on May 16, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I see that
by BK on May 16, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure, ignore these comments
tired of the bright side
we suck balls
Just a sampling of the "criticism," as Slyde calls it. There have been plenty of "Reds suck""Dunn sucks""Griffey sucks" comments. That is not criticism, it's negativity, plain and simple. But it's not just the "X sucks" comments. Even Nationals fans don't bitch as much. It's not just this site. It's all of them, including the newspapers, plus the radio shows. From the same "fans" who won't even come out to see the team when they are in first place. We have a rabid base wanting to trade a guy who hits 40 HR, 100 RBI, and 100 runs every year because they think he's lazy. We have people who can't appreciate having a future Hall of Famer roaming the outfield, who can't just enjoy watching him swing a bat. We had people calling for Krivsky's head when he signed one of the top defensive shortstops in baseball. We have people saying this offense sucks when they are in the top ten in MLB in many offensive categories. (As of Friday: Cincinnati is 10th in the Majors in runs scored at 168 (#6 in the NL). Reds batters are also #2 in the Majors in triples (11), #4 in total bases (518), #10 in RBI (161), #6 in slugging, #9 in OPS, #8 in SB, #1 in pinch hits, and they're way down at #12 in strikeouts after hovering near the top for the last several years.)
And though the bullpen has sucked in the month of May (and people conveniently forget how well they pitched during the first couple of weeks and how Stanton didn't give up his first run until well into April), there is absolutely no rationality when it comes to "debating" the pen. People scream "40 years old!" and that's that, end of story. The bullpen is not as bad as it has been pitching and won't be this bad all year.
Is it frustrating? Yes. But it's irrational to say the season is over in the middle of May. How come people use the "get lucky" stats when they are trying to "prove" that a player is playing better than he should, but people ignore that the Reds "unlucky" record should be 19-21 and well within reach.
Milwaukee has lost three games in a row and four of the last five. Once they started playing the better teams, they've slowed down. All it takes is a good 6-7 game win streak by the Reds and a run like the Sausages are having to get back into it. It's not even optimism to say the Reds are not out of it; it's realism. Examples abound of teams who did poorly at the start of the season but came back to make a run at October. Last year's Marlins are the latest example. They won 8 games in the first 30 and 11 in their first 40. Suddenly, they went on to win 20 of their next 30 games and were in Wild Card contention until late in the season. With the Reds' starting pitching and the decent offense, a replication of the Marlin's success is not outside the realm of possibility. And the 25 games vs. the Sausages and the Chub$ at the end of the season means the Reds' fate is in their own hands.
by Daedalus on May 16, 2007 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said
I'm still looking towards 2008, but I try not to get too down on this team (though I've become much more critical lately). Gotta say though, I'm loving the monster seasons from Dunn and Griffey. And of course, each plate appearance by Hobbs.
Stick around D. The church has to be there in times that try our souls.
by Brendanukkah on May 16, 2007 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say it was all straight criticism
Again, I'd much rather see people frustrated with poor results than people that just don't care.
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me try
- While those are 3 pretty provocative headlines you quoted, they're hardly indicative of the vast majority of the posts on this site. I also think you use "tired of the bright side" to make your point on negativity, when the actual post points out the many good things going on on the team while it's still spinning its wheels. I'd hardly call it negative.
- We had people calling for Krivsky's head when he signed one of the top defensive shortstops in baseball. You've got me there; I don't remember anyone "calling for Krivsky's head" for signing AGon. The spectrum seemed to be "Great signing - we need defense">>>"His defense will only balance out his poor offense"; in other words, the worst seemed to be that it wasn't a bad signing, just not the greatest.
- We have people saying this offense sucks I'll give you that one; the offense has been better this year than anyone expected, even with zero production out of EdE and the catchers. I think the radio/TV heads where the ones behind this recent mantra.
- And though the bullpen has sucked in the month of May ...(it) is not as bad as it has been pitching and won't be this bad all year. Maybe you have been gone too much lately. Popular reasoned opinion (not game chatter - that's always going to be hypersensitive) is that the bullpen has become severely overused. But even at that, it's not just the age of the relievers - it's that they're old and inconsistant (Stanton, Cormier), but being used every freakin' night, while good young pitchers are languishing in AA.
- How come people use the "get lucky" stats when they are trying to "prove" that a player is playing better than he should, but people ignore that the Reds "unlucky" record should be 19-21 and well within reach. Again, I think you're using things the TV/radio guys are saying, and brushing us all with it. I don't see that here. We have been arguing that EdE should be playing more, not less. But Ross? His OPS+ the past 4 years has been 44, 74, 126, and 34. Which one would you call "lucky/unlucky" - the 126, or the 34?
- With the Reds' starting pitching and the decent offense, a replication of the Marlin's success is not outside the realm of possibility. The Marlins' "success"? They ended up 10 games out of the playoffs. I hope this team is shooting higher than that.
Cinci fans are frustrated; it's been too long since the team's been good. Some fans are going to jump on the $100million HOFer with a bunch of freak injuries; some are going to turn on the guy who "strikes out too much"; some are going to see an overused bullpen; some are going to see highly questionable roster contruction. But the one thing you should take out if it is: If the fans are bitching, at least they care. It's when the team is bad and no one notices that you should be worried.
by sidnancy on May 16, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah what he said
by Ben10 on May 16, 2007 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're being somewhat unfair and/or unbalanced.
Daedalus, In an earlier post you wrote:
"...(Bloggers/Red Reporters)find fault with every little thing ... ignore all of the good things ... and dwell on mistakes ... all people want to do is complain".
You're missing something. I think that if you were to exclude the many justifiably critical (bullpen blowouts, managerial moves, etc) comments posted here at Red Reporter and then take a careful inventory of the remaining comments you would find an apropriate proportion of "negative" hand-wringing, fist-pounding, teeth-gnashing and name calling to a fair amount of boastful pride (Hobbs, Arroyo, Harang) and celebratory joyful posts.
Consider the context of the comments that are rubbing you the wrong way. Fans of this team are (perhaps somewhat) familiar with a winning tradition. But the '07 squad is not good. There, I said it. It's the truth. We've known that they're not great and some of us can admit that neither are they even good. In fact, aside from last night's exciting if not exactly crisp and clean extra inning win, they are currently facing an uphill climb to get to mediocre.
Fans have lived through too many consecutive unfulfilling years and the pot on the back burner is beginning to simmer. We're not about to put our memories and expectations in a little Pittsburgh Pirate box on a Kansas City Royal shelf in a Seattle Mariner closet.
The Reds' new ownership and management have not (yet) produced even a .500 team and the possibility of "contending" sometime within the next few years is going to depend on what moves are made by "the powers that be" beginning with next month's trade of Kyle Lohse. Some of us are nervous and antsy. Others are not optimistic that Wayne can or will pull the right levers.
The honeymoon in "the new ballpark" is over and our love affair with the locally born and bred Hall of Famer has devolved into a humdrum sexless marriage. What should one do with one's angst?
Daedalus, you seem to be the kind of woman that would prefer that sunshine not be blown up her skirt. Just like most of us, you don't want to waste time reading naive and ignorant blatherings. I think you'd agree that many/most of the commentators at Red Reporter are a little bit smarter than the average bloggin' bear. This ain't the "Hi Marty ... you and Joe are the best ... Hey, why don't we trade David Ross for Huston Street?"-banana phone.
All this considered, what do you expect to read here? Do you want more kittens? The Family Circus?
And if you want some Reds-specific feel good vibes... For my birthday my mom and dad just bought four tickets for my wife, our boys and I to see the Reds on a sunny Fourth of July afternoon. We're driving down to Cincinnati the day before to check out the "old-timey" Coney Island amusement park where my crazy-like-a-fox two year-old can ride some fiberglass turtles and little cars and whatnot while my one year-old sits in the stroller with a red, white and blue bomb pop and a helium balloon just being fat and waiting for the sun to go down for the park's quaint little fireworks display. We'll stay at the Embassy Suites in Covington and on Independence Day we'll walk to Great American where I'm hoping to see an historic home run from the Giants' slugger and I'm hoping that the final score will belong to the Reds!
Now smiles, smiles everyone.
Play ball! An Arroyo win tonight and we're not too far out of fourth place! And then we'll get to .500 ... And then?...
by Alan on May 16, 2007 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, I mean, wow
by bobestes on May 16, 2007 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
response
The "X sucks" comments are of course not constructive at all, but I discount those entirely. Game threads are a sports bar-like atmosphere. In every bar and stadium in the country whenever the home team gives up a critical home run (especially in the midst of a losing streak) everyone says "This sucks" "He sucks" "We suck..." I was reminded of this article which examined the prejudice against the word sucks (and most intransitive verbs) despite its economy.
Griffey has taken unfair heat since coming here, but I guarantee if he had the same star-crossed years after signing a big contract in New York it would have been much worse. I don't think RR is overly down on Griffey (now that he's moved out of centerfield). Same thing with Dunn. On a continuum of positive/negative feelings about Dunn in Cincinnati, this site is way on the positive side.
There's been some discussion on how the Reds are underachieving according to their RS/RA (this analysis isn't that useful with only a couple weeks in the books, which is why you haven't seen more). Yes, the Reds aren't as bad as they're playing right now, but given that they lost 11 of 13 it should hardly come as a surprise that things get negative.
The offense has been a great surprise, especially to me as I expected them to struggle (speaking of struggling offenses, check out the putridness of St Louis). Your points on the offense are very well taken.
I expected the Reds to win 75-80 games this year and I still think they can (so I expect things to get better). Others who feel the Reds have a better chance are free to explain why, as you have done.
by Red Menace on May 16, 2007 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
Sidnancy has already succinctly defended my comments, but I want to add just a couple things.
First, I stand by my comments. I am tired of looking at the bright side. I would prefer that most of it be bright, rather than have to search out things to feel good about. This team hasn't been to the playoffs in over a decade. I've been looking at the bright side and waiting 'til next year for a long time now. So when we have a team like this year's, which I truly believe has the talent to win the division, it frustrates me to see us suck. And we do suck right now. I'm not saying that we will suck for the rest of the year, or even that we're the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked. But we suck. Going into tonight's action, only Washington, Texas and KC have worse records than us. With the talent on this roster, that's unacceptable.
To me, ultimately it comes down to this: we're underachieving. Our team should be much better than its record indicates. We may turn it around. We certainly have the talent to. But what may happen in the future does not excuse what is happening now. In any business, underachievers must face the consequences. For the Reds, those consequences are currently taking the form of fans getting frustrated and calling out poor play and poor managing. I don't think this is a bad thing. It's definitely better than the consequences that must be faced in a lot of other businesses. And while some may be overly dramatic, a little venting is entirely understandable for a fan base that hasn't been able to taste the postseason since 1995.
I think the Reds can contend this year. I hope they will with every ounce of my being. But right now they're laying a big, fat egg. And I don't think I'm a negative person for pointing that out.
by ctnyc on May 16, 2007 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just want the Reds to win
by JD Arney on May 16, 2007 9:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yepper!
They need to show me something new and innovative. Show me something I haven't seen before. Show me that you can find solid performance rather than ballplayers who "play the game the right way". Show me an understanding of simple concepts like how Run Differential works. Show me a constant state of moving forward rather than running in place. Show me something that looks like a 90-win team to start a season and I'll shut up. No. Rewind. Show me something that looks like a 90-win team and I'll actually be vocal in my support.
Too many empty promises, mistakes, and claims of dedication to building a winner. Stop talking about wanting to build a winner and actually get around to building one. Then maybe I'll come around.
by Reds123 on May 16, 2007 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first step
is admitting you have a problem.
by sidnancy on May 16, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why he said that
I DO think the general fan is awfully negative and hard on folks like Dunn and Griffey, some of the criticisms of the latter are just hysterical; you wouldn't see them elsewhere.
Sometimes it frustrates me that people don't realize we're watching one of the top 10 ballplayers play right in front of our eyes (albeit, a shell of his former self), and to hear a lot of people talk about him, unless he dives headfirst like Pete Rose, he's a zero.
by bobestes on May 16, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The consecutive losing seasons are rough..
In other words, if we flipped 100 coins six consecutive times ("heads"= >.500 and "tails"= <.500) how many of those coins would yield six consecutive "tails?"
I wonder.
by Alan on May 16, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So building a baseball team
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it can be
by justin0070000 on May 16, 2007 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Cubs are so lucky
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nerd alert
by jch24 on May 16, 2007 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not the best example
http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/pages/puzzlezone/muse/muse0403.asp
by jch24 on May 16, 2007 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
silly exercises
by Red Menace on May 16, 2007 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing wrong with
by Madville on May 16, 2007 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So-ohhh what?!!
And guess what... in exchange for having to hear a few bad names hurled at them, these ball players are making between and six and eight figures per year. Some of the best and brightest in my profession will never earn in a year what the 25th man on a major league roster earns. They get paid that much because people enjoy cheering them when they're up and bitching at them when they're down.
So criticize away Reds' fans!! Because the 2007 Reds suck!!
(OK... that last line was mostly tossed in for effect, but Slyde said it above best.... apathy is far worse. And the crummy pitchers making a million plus bucks a year would probably agree if they thought about it for a while.)
by TheC on May 16, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd also add
by sidnancy on May 16, 2007 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
what are playoff games? :)
2007 Reds Threat Level is Blue
by Slyde on May 16, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Playoffs?
by BK on May 16, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Negative ?
This town is asleep - go to Philly go to NY - you don't know what negative is.
by FrankPastore on May 16, 2007 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
