Jocketty Out on His Ass

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 5:05 PM EDT

Sounds like he was pushed out.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/32456B7DBB9EEC44862573690069E6D7 ?OpenDocument

Sounds to me like he knows that they're going to be toast for a couple of years. They're pretty maxxed out, money-wise, and don't have much by way of talent ready to go.

With Houston looking crappy for the forseeable future, it's looking like a reversal in the NL Central.

Teams like Milwaukee and our Reds suddenly have much better prospects for the playoffs with teams like the Cards and Astros headed toward the dumpster.

The Pirates shall always suck.

The Cubs are one year away from being overpaid and bloated; their new owners are going to be saddled with so much debt that there's no way they add payroll.

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BTW

I think Jocketty would be terrible in Cincinnati, his plan for reinvigorating the Cards seemed to be based on acquiring the McGwires, Rolens and Edmonds of the world, which is not a strategy our Redlegs have any capacity to take (financially).

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 5:07 PM EDT reply actions

Edmonds

I think the Cards signed Edmonds the same year Jimbo signed Junior. Might be an interesting speculation as to which team made a better decision.

by HokieRed on Oct 4, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions

Gawd

I would hate to follow that line of thinking to its inevitable conclusion.

Where have you gone Alex Trevino?

by Pops Daniels on Oct 4, 2007 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Mark Cuban

Was on ESPN's First Take this morning. He Said he would like to and was trying to buy the Cubs.

If that happens, it's over for the other teams in the NL Central.

The Reds and the Radio...They're on it.

by chandrathan on Oct 3, 2007 5:08 PM EDT reply actions

Old Boys Club

Mark my words: MLB will never let a Cuban-fronted ownership group own the Cubs.

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions

Then the MLB sucks...

Are they afraid he'll outspend the Yankees? Because he probably would.

The Reds and the Radio...They're on it.

by chandrathan on Oct 3, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Me stupid

I read a recent article at ESPN.com about the sale of the Cubs, and that MLB is so infamous for controlling the sale of teams, that there is no way they'd let a flagship team like the Cubs get sold to a Cuban group.

One example is that there was a lot of hanky-panky stuff that went on with the sale of the Red Sox, that another group had offered more money, but MLB guided the sale to the Henry-fronted group.

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions

ha...

"there is no way they'd let a flagship team like the Cubs get sold to a Cuban group."

THAT'S RACIST!!!!

The Reds and the Radio...They're on it.

by chandrathan on Oct 3, 2007 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

If the Cubs

were a Cuban fronted ownership, would they want Castro?? :)

Cuban is a clever guy, and I'm sure he would apply the more clever modern ideas in baseball, such as sabremetrics, but running a pro-baseball team is a whole 'nother level of complexity than running an NBA franchise.

More players, more administration, the minor leauges, etc., etc.

Baseball could use some jazzing up at times, but I think Cuban would get frustrated pretty fast with some of the "bad luck" that Cubs have with their players, such as Prior and Wood.

My karma just ran over your dogma

by Lonesome George on Oct 3, 2007 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Putting it that way...

There's no way the US Government would let a team go to a Cuban group :)

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 5:21 PM EDT reply actions

As long as he doesn't come here

I don't care where he ends up.

www.redsminorleagues.com

by dougdirt on Oct 3, 2007 6:56 PM EDT reply actions

No. No, no, no, no, no. No.

Signed a clearly declining Jim Edmonds to a 2yr/$19mil extension after the 2006 season. His SLG from 2004-2006 had gone from .643-.533-.471, and he hadn't taken 500 AB's since 2001. Take a wild guess what happened this year: 365 AB's, .403 SLG. Enjoy paying him $8mil next season.

Dealt Dan Haren, Kiko Calero and Daric Barton for Mark Mulder, coming off a season in which he had a 6.13ERA after the All-Star break, and battled a hip condition that caused him to alter his mechanics. Surprisingly!, arm troubles followed. Then, having clearly learned something from that debacle, RE-SIGNED HIM FOR 2 YEARS, $13 MILLION.

Kip Wells: $4mil, 5.75ERA

Braden Looper: 4.94ERA, but at least they only have to pay him $5.5mil next year.

As a small market team who can't afford to pay millions for mediocre (and declining) production, can't afford to deal multiple top prospects for quick fixes, and needs to build a pitching staff, Walt Jocketty is NOT the guy I'd go to.

"Karma - there it was. The meaning of life, straight from Carson Daly's lips to my morphine-laced ears." -Earl Hickey

by BLee2525 on Oct 3, 2007 7:30 PM EDT reply actions

Looper

Are you saying Looper wouldn't look good in our rotation?

by HokieRed on Oct 4, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Doug Davis would look good

in our rotation

Killer Tucans all the way!!!

by Zach K on Oct 4, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't understand why the Card's pushed him out

He was succesful there. He made mistakes, but hell even Jon Scherholtz makes mistakes. Since 1996, the Cardinals have been a force nearly every year. In 2004, they were considered one of the best, if not the best team in baseball. I don't know how well he would do in Cincinnati, because he has signed a lot of free agents, or traded for veterans. But, the St. Louis market isn't that much bigger then Cincinnati. I feel like if Red's fans had somthing to be excited about, GABP would be packed every night. They draw decently well for not having a winning season yet this decade (2000 is techniqually considered the 90's), and not going to the playoff's since 1995. Last year, the Red's drew well in the summer when they were in the thick of it. Looking at the interest at the blogs on cincinnati.com and redreporter, and other fan driven sites. Cincinnati is a good baseball town.

by justin0070000 on Oct 3, 2007 9:14 PM EDT reply actions

Well

He's gone because the only way to sustain the Cardinals as a playoff contender seems to be to go out and spend a ton of money on free agents, because there's no tradeable assets or help in the minor leagues.

DeWitt has made it abundantly clear that the money spigot is shut off.

When Rick Ankiel is your top OF prospect, you're in trouble.

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Don't be shocked if...

Jocketty and LaRussa w/ Dave Duncan end up in Cinci though the Castellini STL connection. But I also agree that Jocketty works well making trades and working within a larger overall payroll structure yet the ownership has said that they would boost payroll to make the team more competitive. Just a thought.

by REDLEG5 on Oct 3, 2007 9:33 PM EDT reply actions

If I say IF

Jocketty and LaRussa w/ Dave Duncan end up in Cinci though the Castellini STL connection then there's no end in sight to the losing. Jocketty and LaLoser are 'over the hill' their day is done. Dave Duncan would be an interesting possiblilty. Every night after I ask Cool God to bless Mommy, Daddy and Uncle Bob, I also ask that TLR never comes to work at the Reds as a field manager.

How long 'til Spring Training?

by Madville on Oct 3, 2007 9:50 PM EDT reply actions

what if they

Brought pujols. Not saying it would ever happen, but what if. Would jockety and Larussa be worth it if they brought Pujols along for the ride.

by gocolts on Oct 3, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions

well if they are bringing pujols

then why dont they also bring along bob gibson and stan musial? hell, if they can bring pujols, then they should have no problem bringing the entire fucking gashouse gang. what if.

at least this isnt pittsburgh

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 3, 2007 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions

really?

they won a world series after all, and had a few pretty good years.

I think their strategy (spend money), if you brought it to Cincy, might work for a few years if Bobby opened up the purse strings, but i suppose we would end up in the same place they are now.

Is that worth a chance at the postseason after 8 years of losing? i don't know. anything is better than what we've been going through. We lost 90 games this year and i don't have much faith in Krivsky to improve us that much, given his lack of success scouting pitching talent.

by Pete on Oct 4, 2007 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions

NO. PERIOD.

NOTGONNAHAPPEN anyway.

How long 'til Spring Training?

by Madville on Oct 3, 2007 10:24 PM EDT reply actions

why do we think they are over the hill?

Does anybody remeber the 2004 Cardinals? That wasn't that long ago. It isn't like they are Bob Quinn and Sparky Anderson. I realize it was kind of an accident, but they did win the World Series last year.

by justin0070000 on Oct 3, 2007 10:46 PM EDT reply actions

Their ace is damaged goods.

And they've got Jim Edmonds.

And you could argue that Pujols has peaked.

by Fat Vegas Alan on Oct 3, 2007 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Salacious!

Arguing that Pujols has peaked!

You rebel, you!

by bobestes on Oct 3, 2007 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Peaked?

He never really lived up to expectations, did he?

Hell, I'll take his decline phase off the Cardinals hands.

by Pete on Oct 4, 2007 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Boo

I don't want him and TLR just because that is like Bill Cowher coaching the Bengals...it's just not right we are suppose to hate that guy.

Killer Tucans all the way!!!

by Zach K on Oct 4, 2007 7:06 AM EDT reply actions

Jocketty

From the Cards website; Jocketty presided over many of the biggest trades in recent franchise history. In 1997, he brought in Mark McGwire from Oakland for Blake Stein, T.J. Mathews and Eric Ludwick. He acquired Jim Edmonds from the Angels for Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy in 2000, and Scott Rolen from the Phillies in 2002 for Placido Polanco, Mike Timlin and Bud Smith.

Out of the 8 guys he traded away Polanco is a decent 2b in Detroit, Adam Kennedy is nothing special and I have never really heard of any of the others besides Timlin who is making his way around the majors.

How many people remember Octber and November last year? As I recall the team Walt Jocketty was running WON THE WORLD SERIES!!! When was the last Time the Redlegs even made the playoffs? Oh Yeah 1990! We may hate the guy but, let me ask bungals fans a question, DId any of them like Marvin Lewis? If I were a bengals fan I would have hated him! Why, he LEAD ANOTHER TEAM IN SAME DIVISON TO A SUPER BOWL, AND WON IT! Think about that.

by Tbone redleg on Oct 4, 2007 11:16 AM EDT reply actions

Give some credit to the '95 team

And Marvin was never a head coach anywhere else. But other than that, you're still sort of foaming and crazy.

by Brendanukkah on Oct 4, 2007 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions

While I'm not saying

Those aren't bad trades

But Polanco is a decent 2B, he has been one of the best 2B the past few seasons! Timlin is a very solid pitcher who will be key for the Red Sox this postseason.

Marvin Lewis is totally different, Bengals Fans won't be like oh god Rob Ryan is going to be the coach now, he is a rivals defensive cordinator and coaching us now. My Point on TLR was that he was the enemy of the Reds in the '90 world series, The Late Surges to past the Reds in '02 and '03! No one remebers when Marvin Lewis was a cordinator for the Ravens and Steelers because who didn't shutdown the bengals in the late 90s and early 2000s.

Killer Tucans all the way!!!

by Zach K on Oct 4, 2007 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions

polanco

It wouldn't suprise me if he were a juicer. I'm just saying it wouldn't surprise me.

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Oct 4, 2007 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions

are you saying the only reason some hate him

is he has been a successful executive from another team in our division? With that logic most Red's fans wouldn't want Albert Puljols and Adam Wainright.

by justin0070000 on Oct 4, 2007 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions

Thats what I get

I get from reading this post people don't like Joccketty and don't want him because he is from St. Louis. I would not want Wainright on my team no way in hell, I think he is way over rated. Had a hell of a rookie year in the bullpen seeing 3-6 batters a game, now as a starter he did not do much, look for a drop off in Joba Chamberlin's number next year who is doing the same thing( not talking big drop but lower strikeout to walk rate...)
I would also be skeptical if Pujols came to the Reds in any other way than if we got the pair(I DONT WANT TLR)

by Tbone redleg on Oct 8, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions

Would a Bengals fan want

Bill Cowher to come coach the Bengal if he did not take a year off? As a Bengal Hater, I would hate that, because IT WOULD MAKE THE TEAM BETTER. As a Reds Fanatic I want the Reds to get better, and NONE of the players Jocketty traded did much of anything at the place they went either.
I would still rather have B.Phil then Polanco, and that was when Rolen was the best 3b out there.

If Krivsky could go out and bring in 3 guys like Pujols(=Mcgwire), David Wright(=Rolen), and say Gary Matthews(=Edmonds) and only give up 3 players who make the majors we would not be having any discussions on weather or not ANYONE else should be the G.M.

by Tbone redleg on Oct 5, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions

Haren and Timlin did ok

I'm not sure Bill Cowher would make the bengals a better team the bengals play a total different of style of offense: Heavy Pass and Defense: The Shitty Nickel do to not having any LBs. I don't think he would do much better.

Killer Tucans all the way!!!

by Zach K on Oct 5, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions