Grade The Reds on 2007

by MixFMKyle on Oct 3, 2007 11:51 AM EDT

All right, I think everyone feels like the Reds could and should have been a much better team this year. If you handed out grades what would you give the players? Copy and paste responses below. I won't include the September Call-Ups (Votto, Coats, etc.) and players we traded (K. Lohse, J. Conine, V. Santos).

POSITION
J. Castro
A. Dunn
E. Encarnacion
R. Freel
A. Gonzalez
K. Griffey Jr.
J. Hamilton
S. Hatteberg
N. Hopper
J. Keppinger
B. Phillips
D. Ross
J. Valentin
Position Players Overall Grade

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo
H. Bailey
M. Belisle
P. Dumatrait
A. Harang
B. Livingston
E. Milton
T. Shearn
Rotation Overall Grade

BULLPEN
B. Bray
J. Burton
T. Coffey
J. Coutlangus
M. Gosling
E. Guardado
G. Majewski
K. Saarlos
B. Salmon
M. Stanton
D. Weathers
Bullpen Overall Grade

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Comments

Eh

POSITION
J. Castro--F
A. Dunn--A
E. Encarnacion--B
R. Freel--Incomplete
A. Gonzalez--Incomplete
K. Griffey Jr.--A-
J. Hamilton--Incomplete
S. Hatteberg--B
N. Hopper--B+
J. Keppinger--B+
D. Ross--C
J. Valentin--C-
Position Players Overall Grade B-

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo--B-
H. Bailey--B-
M. Belisle--C-
P. Dumatrait--D
A. Harang--A+
B. Livingston--C
E. Milton--F
T. Shearn--C
Rotation Overall Grade C+

BULLPEN
B. Bray--B-
J. Burton--B+
T. Coffey--F
J. Coutlangus--B-
M. Gosling--C
E. Guardado--C
G. Majewski--F
K. Saarlos--D
B. Salmon--B-
M. Stanton--F
D. Weathers--A
Bullpen Overall Grade D

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 12:03 PM EDT reply actions

Phillips??

would get an A

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah Sorry

I forgot him somehow. He is listed now.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Oct 3, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Hatte gets only a B?

The clutchiest Red? Man, you're a tough grader.

All Things Bubba: Because how can you not love a baseball player named Bubba?

by BubbaFan on Oct 3, 2007 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions

I guess it should be a B+

because he is "a good clubhouse guy" you know, 'plays well with others'

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions

unless that clubhouse is another city

or those others are opposing left handed pitchers.

Fratty 2007
Away: .244/.351/.366
vsLHP: .205/.244/.333

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Oct 3, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions

F overall

POSITION
J. Castro - F
A. Dunn - A
E. Encarnacion - B
R. Freel - C-
A. Gonzalez- D
K. Griffey Jr. - B+
J. Hamilton - B
S. Hatteberg - B
N. Hopper - A
J. Keppinger - A
D. Ross - D
J. Valentin - C-
Position Players Overall Grade - B-

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo - B
H. Bailey - C-
M. Belisle - D
P. Dumatrait - F
A. Harang - A
B. Livingston - inc
E. Milton - F
T. Shearn - C
Rotation Overall Grade - D

BULLPEN
B. Bray - C
J. Burton - B
T. Coffey - F
J. Coutlangus - C-
M. Gosling - C-
E. Guardado - D
G. Majewski - F
K. Saarlos - F
B. Salmon - D
M. Stanton - D
D. Weathers - B+
Bullpen Overall Grade - F

by obc on Oct 3, 2007 12:09 PM EDT reply actions

My Grades

POSITION
J. Castro- F
A. Dunn- B + (Most impotant player in the lineup. Now we know he played hurt all year, even more impressive)
E. Encarnacion- B (If April-June would have been like July-Sept, Edwin would have ended up with an A. His .290 Avg led the team)
R. Freel- D (When he was healthy, he wasn't that good)
A. Gonzalez- C (Better than expected on O, not so much on D. Tough year for him)
K. Griffey Jr.- B+ (Jr. Really wore down in late August amd September before getting hurt. But I still think he had a hell of a year)
J. Hamilton - B (Needs to improve hitting lefties, and needs to stay healthy, still who would of thought he did what he did last year at the Rule V Draft?)
S. Hatteberg - B
N. Hopper - C + (I still don't like his defense, and for a "speedy guy" he doesn't steal bases too often.
J. Keppinger - B +
D. Ross - D (Defense was good, but miserable at the plate)
J. Valentin C+
Position Players Overall Grade- B Really this team has some nice depth. Add in Cantu and Votto for '08 and they are even deeper. Plus, Jay Bruce is waiting in the wings. Definately the strongest area of our team.

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo C + (Maybe expectations were too high, and Run Support was lacking at times, but Bronson had 4 or 5 miserable starts.
H. Bailey C - (I dont think he was healthy his first run thru Cincy, he was better toward the end)
M. Belisle C - (Consistency would be nice)
P. Dumatrait F
A. Harang - A I say right now easily best pitcher in our Division.
B. Livingston - C
E. Milton - D Actually wasn't too horrible as a # 5 guy before getting hurt. Still, Bye bye Eric. Good Luck next year.
T. Shearn- C (Not much to be excited about)
Rotation Overall Grade C + (One would think Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, and Bailey will be back in there next year. I really don't see anyone else in house I like. Gotta find a good #2 or #3.

BULLPEN
B. Bray- C
J. Burton- A-
T. Coffey- D
J. Coutlangus- C
M. Gosling- D
E. Guardado- D
G. Majewski- F
K. Saarlos- F
B. Salmon- D
M. Stanton- F
D. Weathers- A
Bullpen Overall Grade- D Im pretty sure I don't have to even comment on the bullpen. It was pretty obvious to everyone.

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Oct 3, 2007 12:11 PM EDT reply actions

Forgot BP

Brandon Phillips gets an A

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Oct 3, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Would you want Milton back...

for 2-3 mil a year on a two year contract? The reason I ask, I agree there was a slim glimmer of the Milton of old before he was shut down for the season. Considering he now has next to no value would you give him a 'Paul Wilson' sort of comeback chance?

Also same scenario on Guardado's option??

Just looking for some RR opinons.

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions

For

short medium relief, meh. But not as a starter.

Semicolons; RAWK!

by sukr on Oct 3, 2007 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions

For the 4 & 5 SP role

we have a heap of guys clinging to the ML level. Why not a cheap Milton?

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions

So we don't hijack a thread here,

I'll just say because I don't want to see his goatee ever again. Nor do I want to see his "the world just eff'd me in the bum" face ever again.

Semicolons; RAWK!

by sukr on Oct 3, 2007 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions

understood

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

For $2-3 million?

Nah, he'd have to pay me a lot more than that for me to let him on my team.

We Are ... Marshall!

by Thundering Turtle on Oct 3, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Grades without Explanation.

POSITION
J. Castro - F
A. Dunn - A-
E. Encarnacion - B-
R. Freel - D+
A. Gonzalez - C-
K. Griffey Jr. - B+
J. Hamilton - B-
S. Hatteberg - C
N. Hopper - B-
J. Keppinger - B+
B. Phillips - A
D. Ross - D+
J. Valentin - C-
Position Players Overall Grade - C+

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo - B-
H. Bailey - B-
M. Belisle - C
P. Dumatrait - F
A. Harang - A
B. Livingston - D
E. Milton - F
T. Shearn - C-
Rotation Overall Grade - D

BULLPEN

They suck. I'll give them an f!

The Reds and the Radio...They're on it.

by chandrathan on Oct 3, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions

Progressive School

Rotation makes Red Menace feel Partly Cloudy

Lineup makes Red Menace feel Elvis

Bullpen makes Red Menace feel Jack in the Box

Cincinnati Reds make Red Menace feel C-

by Red Menace on Oct 3, 2007 12:52 PM EDT reply actions

All of this

followed by a hug and pat on the head.

Don't worry little Redlegs, just so long as you tried your hardest.

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

position player grades

J. Castro: F
A. Dunn: B
E. Encarnacion: B
R. Freel: D
A. Gonzalez: C+
K. Griffey Jr.: B+
J. Hamilton: B+
S. Hatteberg: A-
N. Hopper: A-
J. Keppinger: A
B. Phillips: A
D. Ross: D+
J. Valentin: C
Position Players Overall Grade : B-

by nighthawk32 on Oct 3, 2007 1:05 PM EDT reply actions

Serious?

6 higher than Dunn?
Hatteberg higher than Dunn?
Are you serious?

by jacob brumfield on Oct 3, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Uh

That's a fucked up curve if Hoppinger gets the same grade as BP.

Where have you gone Alex Trevino?

by Pops Daniels on Oct 3, 2007 4:11 PM EDT reply actions

I'm Suprised

Why don't people give hopper and Keppinger more credit for their contributions. I'm also suprised why people seem to be putting Keppinger on the bench next year. He had a fair amount of at bats this season, and its not like hes lucking out on his hits to balls put in play. Are we valuing defence over offence? Or do people think his hitting can't continue? Can anyone elaborate?

by The Crushinator on Oct 3, 2007 4:25 PM EDT reply actions

Hopper

I think he just isn't a complete player. Yes he has some speed, but doesn't seem to be a base stealer. He can cover the outfield, but misplays balls and makes bad throws. He can hit, but just basically singles and bunt hits. The Reds never had anyone healthy this year. If Freel stays, I don't see a spot here for Hopper in 07

Find me on MySpace- http://www.myspace.com/mixfmkyle

by MixFMKyle on Oct 3, 2007 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions

i think giving keppinger a starting spot

for next year is fairly risky. 1) where do you put him? i can think of at least one (in some cases even more) player(s) at every position ahead of him on the depth chart. shortstop? gonzo is one year into his contract and hit pretty well this year (glove was meh) so he isnt going anywhere. 2B? come on. 3B? EdE is better AND younger. OF? nope. the best thing for this dude, with all the injury-prone dudes ahead of him, is to be a 2005-freel-esque-super-sub. the bench sorely needs jeff keppinger.

as for hopper, i think kyle summed it up pretty well. even kepp is a better outfielder than he is, in my esteemed and oft-reserved opinion. hopper is alot like an antique car. people are impressed and think its really fun to watch him go, but you are really dumb if you drive him every day.

at least this isnt pittsburgh

by Charlie Scrabbles on Oct 3, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Keppinger had the 261 ABs

of his baseball life this year, which makes sense because he entered the mythical annus mirabilus of 27 years old this season. If he is to start next year, he'll have to replace either EdE or Gonzalez. Do you risk getting rid of a younger dynamo with power in EdE or an established major league starter in Gonzalez (3 years older than Kepp) on the basis of half a season of ABs?

Probably not. I'd like to keep him around to see if he's some sort of late bloomer, but I would not count him as a starter next year.

FWIW, his BABIP was .333 this season; 1 hundreth of a point above his batting average. I don't recall seeing that before.

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Oct 3, 2007 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions

Kepp

There is something odd that i noticed about Kepp. A couple of weeks ago when Votto broke up a routine fly ball that Kepp was positioned under, I noticed during the replay of how intense the guy is. He never got flustered or angry, contrarily he was quite calm, but there was an intensity in him that is kind of rare. You knew he was angry. But he never showed it. Kinda spooky. Don't know how that translates into baseball aptitude, but hey, then again I'm an amateur fan.

by gocolts on Oct 3, 2007 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I've got to get HD

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Oct 3, 2007 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions

Keppinger just can't afford to fuck this up.

He's really got a shot now and I see that intensity as determination to do as well as possible in every situation, at each PA, every pitch...he's also professional enough to not show his displeasure with Votto over one fuckup and knows his place in the 'pecking order' as a team leader. I really admire the guy.

How long 'til Spring Training?

by Madville on Oct 3, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions

mor intensity

a ring-a-ding-ding

"Two Dunn's enter, but only one Dunn will leave...unless neither do because they decide to play cards, drink beer, golf, and fish."--SlydeFrog

by Man Mountain on Oct 4, 2007 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions

Hoppinger

I'll look at them separately because though we often combine them, they are quite different.

The thing with Hopper is that his career minor league batting line is .290/.341/.337. Take into account that his BABIP (.369) this year was about 50 points higher than his excepted BABIP (.317), which is based on the number of line drives that he hit, and I really start to doubt that Hopper can produce a year like he did this year. Obviously a large portion of that difference is because of Hopper's bunting and apparent infield hit ability. To me, those are both very defensible skills and I think eventually we will see teams start to play him out of those skills. If he plays all the way down to his expected BABIP, suddenly we have a guy whose line looks more like: .283/.328/.342. That's not acceptable.

Hopper had a good year this year. I'd put him at a 'B' (and I think anyone grading an A is doing it because he topped expectations). He was very good at getting on base at the top of the lineup. If he could maintain that OBP, I would be more than happy with him there. But his OBP is highly tied to his batting average and always has been. The fact that he rarely takes a walk means we will see lots of fluctuation in his productivity mainly because there will be times when he fails to hit 'em where they ain't. This is why I feel like he's got value as a 4th or 5th outfielder, but he isn't a long-term starting option.

Keppinger is a different story. His .335 BABIP is right in line with his expected BABIP (.333). He's also shown a bit of power that doesn't show up in Hopper's game. And while he doesn't walk much either, he strikes out even less (MM, that's why his BABIP is so close to his average). His batting peripherals make his season look much less fluky to me.

I think I'd give Keppinger a B+ for the season. He tailed off quite a bit at the end of the season (.287/.358/.372 in Sept.), and I think that if he had played another 100 plate appearances his numbers would look much different. But, I also think that he will work as a very solid utility guy for the Reds in the future. While Hopper is pretty much a singles hitter, I think Keppinger is a doubles hitter who will occasionally hit a home run. That is much more valuable to me than what Hopper brings to the table.

If the Reds can trade Gonzalez this off-season, I wouldn't have too much problem with it. I don't know if Keppinger is good long-term solution at shortstop, but I think he can fill that role next season. And if Gonzalez could bring some bullpen help while taking his contract with him, then it might be the right move for the Reds to make.

I'm not superstitious...but I am a little stitious.

by Slyde on Oct 4, 2007 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions

I love to grade the work of others

in a field in which I couldn't possible compete. But to quote my long dead Father: "You don't have to know how to make ice cream to know if it tastes good".

POSITION
J. Castro D--
A. Dunn A
E. Encarnacion B
R. Freel C
A. Gonzalez c+
K. Griffey Jr. B+
J. Hamilton B
S. Hatteberg A-
N. Hopper B+
J. Keppinger A-
B. Phillips A
D. Ross C
J. Valentin B
Position Players Overall Grade - C+

If it weren't for injuries and Waynr's strange manipulation of the position players the over all grade would have been more like a B. Of course we are not looking at Connine or Ellison in the group either.

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo B
H. Bailey C-
M. Belisle C+
P. Dumatrait D---
A. Harang A+
B. Livingston B
E. Milton I
T. Shearn B
Rotation Overall Grade B-

Arroyo pitched w/out support and with the exception of that one stretch was faily consistent. Belixxxle was in and out of the roatation. Both Livingston and Shearn did their job, they kept the team in the game for 6 innings for the most part and that what you need out of your number 4 and 5 guys. Bailey really worries me. He only had a couple of outings where he dominated, most of the time he was not is control.

BULLPEN
B. Bray B-
J. Burton A-
T. Coffey C-
J. Coutlangus C+
M. Gosling D
E. Guardado C-
G. Majewski C-
K. Saarlos D--
B. Salmon D+
M. Stanton D+
D. Weathers A-
Bullpen Overall Grade D-

It hard to factor in the terrible miss-use of the BP by Coach Narron and the injuries too, but it was definately the worst part of the team.

Lets hope for good things for all the guys wherever they end up next season AND that the Reds finally get the right combination of players, coaches and manager for 2008.

How long 'til Spring Training?

by Madville on Oct 3, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions

Everyone gets an F

because the team sucked

Killer Tucans all the way!!!

by Zach K on Oct 3, 2007 10:18 PM EDT reply actions

grade card

POSITION
J. Castro c
A. Dunn a
E. Encarnacion b
R. Freel incomplete
A. Gonzalez b
K. Griffey Jr. A-
J. Hamilton B
S. Hatteberg B
N. Hopper B+
J. Keppinger B+
B. Phillips A
D. Ross D-
J. Valentin C+
Position Players Overall Grade C+

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo C
H. Bailey B
M. Belisle C
P. Dumatrait D-
A. Harang A
B. Livingston B
E. Milton incomplete
T. Shearn B
Rotation Overall Grade D+/C-

BULLPEN
B. Bray C+
J. Burton B
T. Coffey D
J. Coutlangus C
M. Gosling D
E. Guardado D+
G. Majewski D
K. Saarlos F
B. Salmon D
M. Stanton D-
D. Weathers B
Bullpen Overall Grade D

Hope Springs Eternal! Go Reds

by Caleb on Oct 3, 2007 11:32 PM EDT reply actions

Grades

POSITION
J. Castro- C
A. Dunn- B+
E. Encarnacion- B
R. Freel- C+
A. Gonzalez- C+
K. Griffey Jr.- B+
J. Hamilton- B...(injuries keep from A)
S. Hatteberg- C
N. Hopper- B+
J. Keppinger- B
B. Phillips- A
D. Ross- C+ (defense)
J. Valentin- C
Position Players Overall Grade- B-

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo- C+
H. Bailey- B
M. Belisle- B-
P. Dumatrait- C
A. Harang- A
B. Livingston- C+
E. Milton- F
T. Shearn- B
Rotation Overall Grade- B-

BULLPEN
B. Bray- C+
J. Burton- B-
T. Coffey- C-
J. Coutlangus- B-
M. Gosling- C
E. Guardado- F
G. Majewski- F
K. Saarlos- D+
B. Salmon- B-
M. Stanton- C
D. Weathers- B
Bullpen Overall Grade- D-

Confucious say: "Baseball wrong - man with four balls cannot walk." ~Author Unknown

by crolfer on Oct 5, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions

Like I know what I am talking about

Grades based on how these players stacked up to MLB average performance. C = average play compared to others who play the same position.

POSITION
J. Castro - F
A. Dunn - B+
E. Encarnacion - C
R. Freel - Skip
A. Gonzalez - B
K. Griffey Jr. - B
J. Hamilton - Injuries make this tricky, but by Rule 5 standards, A, as a starting LF, B-.
S. Hatteberg - C+
N. Hopper - D (sorry, I like the guy also, but...)
J. Keppinger - Utility guy, A-
B. Phillips - B+
D. Ross - D
J. Valentin - Pinch hitter, 2nd Catcher, C+
Position Players Overall Grade - C+ for this list, but lack of depth is a problem.

STARTING PITCHERS
B. Arroyo - B-
H. Bailey - Too little time.
M. Belisle - D (but I still have hope!)
P. Dumatrait - Too little
A. Harang - A
B. Livingston - C- as a #4 or #5 starter.
E. Milton - Too little
T. Shearn - Too little
Rotation Overall Grade - Hell, two good starters in today's reality gives the rotation no worse than a C. I'd go C+ overall. Again, too little depth.

BULLPEN
B. Bray - Too little
J. Burton - B, for a Rule 5, another big win for Krivsky here. (I hit myself when I have to write that)
T. Coffey - D
J. Coutlangus - C+
M. Gosling - Too little
E. Guardado - Too little
G. Majewski - F
K. Saarlos - D+ as a garbage man
B. Salmon - C
M. Stanton - D-
D. Weathers - C as a closer
Bullpen Overall Grade - D

Krivsky has been shipping away offensive power and organizational depth for veteran pitching and defense during his tenure. So far the result is a declining offense and a poorly put together pitching staff backed up by some decent but aging good glove men. If Krivsky left now that, plus a hollow minor league system, would be his legacy.

Minus the blessings of Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, Gonzo and the two Rule-5 gems the year was pretty wasted. I'm glad Dunn, Griffy, Hatteberg and Weathers were able to put in another good year, but at least three (possibly all four) will not be part of the 2009 roster. The minors do not offer much hope beyond Votto and Bailey.

Unless Krivsky finds a few middling sort releivers during the off-season (something he has never been able to do in the past)
...and Bailey plus either Belisle or the Lizard put up decent years for back of the rotation starters next year,
...and Votto, Encarnacion and Hamilton prove up to the task of playing effectively full time next year,
...and both Phillips or Gonzlez stay healthy and effective,

...unless all the above happens I expect the Reds to stay in decline next year. The team Krivsky has right now has a lot of areas where there is little margin for error. I worry that he will try to give the team secutity in these areas in the worst possible way, by signing another truckload of aging veterans who are both expensive and basically league average players now. He then will watch approvingly as his manager plays these older players as often as the younger players.

Rock Chalk Talk for pretty good KU baseball coverage

by James Quinn on Oct 5, 2007 11:03 AM EDT reply actions