OBP and its Fallacy of Composition
"A Logical Fallacy describes an error in reasoning that can lead you to a false conclusion."
One of the problems with saber heads and their reasoning about OPS (OBP + SLG) correlating with runs scored is the following:
And by the way this is CONCEPTUAL. Stat heads like to play the same games car salesman do when they ask you "What do you want your monthly payment to be?" Once you get a dollar amount you can then of course go through gyrations with numbers/formulas and beat it by 20 bucks to presumably get "the sale" (don't look at the down payment or years on loan though).......
As HORRIBLE as Dunn has been this year stat heads will say look at his OPS only Ross is higher. Then they will say OPS correlates with Run Scoring stronger than OBP, SLG or BA so the conclusion is simple - Ross hasn't played every daye, so Dunn has been the best offensive player on team.....(not really though).....
As a pitcher who would you rather walk? Ryan Freel or Adam Dunn? You'd rather walk Dunn. Who is more likely to cause trouble on the bases and presumably more likely to score starting from first base? Freel or Dunn? Freel of course. Freel on first base is of much higher value to the team than Dunn but OBP awards them equal value.
Similarly, suppose you have two outs and bases empty. A pitcher now has in essence 3 free bags at his disposal to use to get ONE out. If he tries to get ahead with the first batter (Dunn for example) but doesn't, then he just walks him - no sweat. That walk has NOWHERE NEAR the same value to the TEAM as a walk with no outs or a bases loaded walk, etc...etc... with Dunn on first and no risk of stealing second, the pitcher now still has 2 free bags at his disposal to get just ONE out. Again, he can pitch to get ahead, get batter to make a mistake....
In above situation, a homerun "threat" will be far more likely to pick up a tactical walk. It will count as a base for his OBP but it will be of far less value to team than a walk in other situations or to a different player.
If you've ever played Texas Hold 'em you know POSITION is everything. A pair of fours has one value when you're on the button and a whole different value when you're first to play.
Trying to place a value on tactical walks is dicey and difficult. So what do the saber formulas do? They just dismiss the different values. They dismiss the fact that walks have different values depending on player receiving walk or situation and treat them all as the same.....all comes out in the wash right? wrong
Ryan Freel walks will ALWAYS be of higher value than Adam Dunn walks. And Ryan Freel not being a homerun threat will always get fewer tactical walks based on situation/men on base/outs etc and his speed.......
Furthermore, apart from a bases empty situation a walk will ALWAYS be of less value than a "single". Hits advance runners at least one base but maybe more and force defense to execute. OBP treats singles and walks equally. OBP as a measure of value would say a player who received 100 walks had the same value to team as a player who had 100 singles. This couldn't be further from the truth.
Be wary of the slow "power hitter" with the high OBP - his OBP is artificially inflated. He is being given the open jump shot because the defense wants him to shoot. Check out the BA of a high OBP power hitter before making appraisal. If you see high OBP and relatively high BA (along with POWER) then you have a find. If you see OBP but peculiarly LOW BA....red flag it baby !!!
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by rojosoto on Sep 8, 2006 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OBP vs OPS
OBP treats them the same, but OPS gives the single a greater value. That's why OPS, not OBP alone, correlates more closely to run production.
You are also right that OPS does not factor in SB's. There are other metrics out there that do (ie RC/27), but don't know enough about them to know how much better the stat-to-run correlation is. The arguments I've read state that the correlation is only slightly better, but the calculation of the stat is much more cumbersome - in other words, you can easily calculate OPS by adding 2 common stats together but to calculate the slightly better stat, requires formulas and an abacus.
by rojosoto on Sep 8, 2006 1:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
The problem is all formulas can work with is data. A formula can't really handle the impact a Ryan Freel on first base has on the whole infield, the batter at the plate, the pitcher etc.....
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but that can be measured
And I've never seen a SABR article minimize the importance of fielding. It's just that often times a player's offensive value can greatly make up for defensive deficiencies.
by Slyde on Sep 8, 2006 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
The problem with attempting to quantify fielding woes is of course the imperfections of "range" measurements and also the flubs that don't show up as errors but cause same damage.
I have seen plenty of outfield errors that led to many runs - I have seen no quantification which adequately values the damage bad fielding can do. All the emphasis is on offensive formulas - obviously easier to quantify but doesn't mean the defense is any less important.....
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're lying
You actually (and accidently, I'd assume) hit the nail on the head: I have seen no quantification which adequately values the damage bad fielding can do. Specifically, there is no good measure of "good fielding" and "bad fielding". Because there is no good measure, guys who know what they're talking about won't make absolute statements about fielding, and especially about relative fielding ability.
ARod was widely called the best player in the game while in Seattle and Texas. It wasn't because he was the best hitter - he was far from it. He was the best player because he was stellar at the toughest defensive position, and hit like a corner outfielder. Defense matters alot. (That's why it was the SABR guys weren't the ones howling about his $250 mill contract, it was the jealous public)
No one discounts that Dunn is a poor fielder. But the fact that he is so good as a hitter, and paid pretty cheaply for his offensive talent, tends to outshine his defense.
by sidnancy on Sep 8, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hustle plays...
by Mini Michael on Sep 8, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quit making stuff up
"Clutch hitting" does exist, or did you miss Dunn's game-winning grand slam vs. Cleveland? It's just that it isn't shown to be a skill - guys with a high BA RISP this year tend to have a low one next year, and in the long run hit no better or worse in those situations than overall.
And the formulas absolutely tell you what effect having Ryan Freel on base does (as someone else pointed out, having a "base stealer" on base doesn't do much to raise or lower scoring).
by sidnancy on Sep 8, 2006 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re
I hand it to James in regards to his RC formula. I did enough research on it at one point to learn that with his later versions where he continues to strive for more accuracy he has in fact included a component for:
-solo homeruns
-BA with RISP
-strikeouts
The fact that James now includes a component for those in his RC formula shows that he certainly doesn't dismiss them and that all along they have in fact been factors.
The RC formula isn't my cup of tea but I give him credit for continuing to try and better it.
* the obvious reply from saber folks who dismiss solo dingers, BA with RISP and Ks is to then point out the minimal quantitative weight James assigns these components. Well for a long time he didn't even include them as components. It is certainly no sure thing the weight he has at present assigned to them is accurate/as it should be.......
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
diminishing returns
Personally, I'm not a fan of OPS as a stand-alone stat. I like to look at avg/obp/slg as 3 separate components along with the # of ABs or PAs.
by rojosoto on Sep 8, 2006 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diminishing returns...
Therefore, since solo HR correlates fairly strongly with SLG and to a lesser extent with OBP (i.e., the more solo HR you hit, the higher your SLG and OBP), adding solo HR to the formula as a variable may just add more noise. BA with RISP will probably correlate quite strongly with OBP and to a lesser extent SLG.
Therefore, adding more variables may actually diminish the power of the formula to predict outcomes rather than enhance it.
by Paul Householder on Sep 8, 2006 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Freel on Base
at a pivotal late inning point in a close game who do you want on first base? Freel or Dunn? Worst case you tell Freel not to steal and just take advantage of him as a "threat" and his better leg speed on basepaths..........
BAseball is ALL ABOUT SITUATIONS. And all the cumulative, put whole season in a bucket formulas dismiss situations. Taken individually each "metric" has its own set of "imperfections" (yes, even BA) but then when you start combining metrics those imperfections can increase even more giving you results far from accurate..........
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And, by the way...
by Mini Michael on Sep 8, 2006 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
Look - Dunn is valuable not because of OBP, but because of OPS. The fact that he gets on base alot, and hits ball hard when he gets hits, makes him special.
Let's start with a basic premise: You win by scoring more runs than your opponent. Runs are good.
Consider the "Anti-Dunn", Ichiro!. In his career, your ideal high-BA, basestealling, no HR hitting, low strikeout guy scored 648 runs in 4270 PA, or 15.2% of the time he comes up. Dunn, the low-BA, fat, slow, HR hitting, high strikeout guy (who probably kicks puppies and old ladies, too) has scored 511 runs in 3323 PA, or 15.4% of the time. That's considered more. And more runs are good.
Now Dunn has a slightly higher OBP than Ichiro! (because of all of those stupid walks). The fast Ichiro! probably scores more when he's on base, right? Nope. Ichiro! has been on base 1592 times, scoring 40.7% of the time. Dunn has been on base 1242 times, scoring 41.1% of the time. So even though Ichiro! has more good hitters hitting behind him to drive him in, and (according to you) fast is far better than slow, fat and slow Dunn scores more often.
But like I said, that's not what makes Dunn special. In his 3995 AB, Ichiro! has 257 extra-base hits; Dunn, in 1230 fewer AB, has 96 more XBH. Which, in addition to where in the order he hits, accounts for all of those extra RBI he has. Did I mention that runs are good?
Of course as a pitcher you'd rather walk Dunn than Freel, but not because of "speed", or "disruption", or any other bullcrap. You'd rather walk Dunn because he'll get an XBH 12.7% of his non-walk PA, as opposed to 7.3% for Freel. If Dunn gets a hit, 69% of the time it's going for extra bases. Extra bases means...More runs!
by sidnancy on Sep 8, 2006 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Post of the Day
If recent diaries are any indication, Michael will either continue to ignore this post until it falls off the page, or post underneath it and make up his own question to answer.
By the way, Michael, did you get around to answering my questions yet? They're multiple choice, not essay. All you have to do is write down letters, man.
by BLee2525 on Sep 8, 2006 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael = Joke Account
by Geki on Sep 8, 2006 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No joke.
by Mini Michael on Sep 8, 2006 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: gregD diminishing returns...
My problem with OPS is it makes a one man band out of every player and presumably allows you to rank players based on the one all be all stat.
I'm like you I prefer BA, OBP and SLG all separately because each does something different. And I think you assign more relative weight to one or the other depending on the individual player and his likely role on a TEAM.
I don't care if every hit Ichiro or Freel gets is a single. I'm looking for pieces to a puzzle. I'm looking for guys who can be counted on for certain things in certain roles on team at CRITICAL times.
I have no use for Dunn because in critical situations the most likely "positive" outcome is just a BB to a slow guy and a very likely negative one is a K. No thanks. (see lifetime ~.215 BA with RISP)
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pieces to a puzzle
by ken on Sep 8, 2006 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
That IS Dunn. That is why a team should have no use for Dunn. He doesn't have the fundamentals, sound approach to hold up when it counts the most. He'll grab a headline occasionally but more often than not... (see ~.215 BA lifetime with RISP) he breaks down.....
I'll take guys who are more versatile, maybe don't hit the highs but don't hit the lows either and DO hold up in the clutch....
by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not everyone would...
by ohiobobcat on Sep 8, 2006 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yawn
by boohiss on Sep 8, 2006 3:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by FritzMW on Sep 8, 2006 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does Michael
by cesarhernandez on Sep 9, 2006 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because.....
by BLee2525 on Sep 9, 2006 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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