Dayton Daily News Article... and leaders, slackers, duds....

by MichaelRed on Sep 7, 2006 11:23 AM EDT

http://www.daytondailynews.com/search/content/oh/story/sports/reds/2006/09/07/ddn090706arch.html

So those who dismiss intangibles, dismiss team leaders, dismiss chemistry etc.... read the above article and then think about it. And think about the last time you were on a sports team....

<<<<<
Is resolve giving way to resignation?

Dunn shrugged at the questions: "I have no idea. We're just playing bad at the wrong time. There's nothing we can do. I guess we could take extra batting practice, but that's not really going to do anything ..."

But as he left the clubhouse, the big outfielder showed he was going to get some swings in.

He picked up the golf bag by his locker, slung it over his shoulder and, with clubs rattling, headed for the door.

Might as well start working on the game he'll be playing when the postseason starts.
>>>>>>>>

Dunn grew up on a street named after his family. Dunn grew up being told that don't worry about getting a job as long as you can play ball you'll be fine. Dunn himself has said he has read two books in his entire life.

In Dunn's world when adversity comes, Dunn grabs the golf clubs. That got him to where he is today presumably............

But again, noone else on this Reds team will ever hit a ball into the river. I doubt anyone else on this Reds team grew up on a street named after its family.

If Dunn was just an afterthought "member" of this team it wouldn't be a problem. But by virtue of his personality, charisma, SALARY, role on team ... Dunn is one of the leaders of this team. And if noone else steps up than by default he and Griffey are THE leaders.

When your LEADERS are grabbing the golf clubs in early September this is not a good thing - particularly when you're headed to the links as leader in baseball in strikeouts, leader in baseball for errors for outfielders, hitting ~.230 with RISP and .240 on the year.....

Yes, this team's pitching has been a big problem for 5+ years but this is illustrative of how a more subtle problem has existed and still exists with this team. This everyday player mix is still not right and there are some individuals who have had plenty of chances...... and not raised their game and still not provided the leadership or onfield contributions that a baseball team needs from its highest paid players.

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Golf

I wonder how many times in a round he swings and misses?

by WayneNarron on Sep 7, 2006 11:44 AM EDT reply actions

Golf

So Dunn's not allowed to play golf on an offday? Maybe the best way for him to deal with a slump is to do something relaxing instead of spending 24 hours of intense drills in the batting cage. Perhaps relaxing on the offday will allow him to relax at the plate this weekend.

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 11:51 AM EDT reply actions

Today's the off day - maybe yesterday, after

another loss caused by lack of hitting, Dunn could have spent some time in the batting cage until heading home (most .243 hitters can use all the practice they can get).

by HoosierAndy on Sep 7, 2006 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions

Dunn LOB Wed = 1

1-for-3 with 1 BB, 2K.

Missed opportunities, you might want to check with "catcher of the future" David Ross 0-for-4 with 6 LOB.

Also, 7th hitter 0-for-3 Brandon Phillips with 1 LOB or 8th hitter 0-for-4 Denorfia/Hollandsworth/Castro with 2 LOB.

The 6-7-8 hitters combined for a very nice 0-for-11.

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions

That's why they're 6-8 guys

The 3-5 guys are supposed to be your money. If they don't hit, you don't win.

by iamwallaman on Sep 7, 2006 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions

3-4-5

#3 - Aurilia 0-for-4
#4 - Dunn 1-for-3 with 1 BB
#5 - EdE 2-for-3 with 1 BB

.300 avg, .417 obp.

In today's game, 0-11 is not acceptable at 6-8. Your #6 hitter has got to be almost as good as #5, and you need at least 1-2 hits per game from #7/8.

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions

I had really hoped the Reds had gotten their

clubhouse straightened out (leaving the on-the-field stuff out of it for the moment) by getting rid of Graves, Casey, Kearns, and Lopez, who were all unprofessional to some extent when it came to being a major league ball player (Graves - fipping off the fans after blowing yet another game; Casey - this isn't a cocktail party so shut yer big yapper down at first everytime someone gets on base; Kearns - how much weight can one gain before exploding; Lopez - no need to work on my fielding, etc.).

Unfortuntely, the ring-leader himself is still around - I wonder how much effort Dunn puts into becoming a better hitter and fielder? Or does he coast on his immense natural ability so he can spend his off days playing video games and golf??

Too bad this team doesn't have a Rose, Bench, Davis, Morgan, Vaughan, Concepcion or even a Larkin around to tighten up the ship. I hope Hatteberg, Aurilia, or Freel have tried at least (another problem with the amount of money involved in BBall these days is that a guy making $7M per year probably isn't going to listen much to a guy only making $1M or so - that shouldn't matter, but I'm pretty sure its the norm).

by HoosierAndy on Sep 7, 2006 12:07 PM EDT reply actions

Other than the very public Graves incident

what is your source that Casey-Kearns-Lopez were problems in the clubhouse? I've never heard anyone say anything negative about any of those players during their tenure with the Reds or their new clubs.

Ah, 2nd paragraph...it's Dunn's fault again. The ring-leader. Never the reason they win, always the reason they lose. [sarcasm]Hopefully the Reds can "dump" him on the Cardinals next year so that the Reds can finally win the division. [/sarcasm]

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Dunn

street named after him? golf clubs? damn, this guy sounds like the male equivalent of Paris Hilton. Tell me, he doesn't by chance have a miniature poodle stashed away in his bat bag, does he?

by Slyde on Sep 7, 2006 12:24 PM EDT reply actions

This sucks

Because, even as lousy as they have played, there is still time. I think the thing that eats at me the most is that, with few exceptions, they look like they could care less if they win or lose.

It looks like to me that Freel, Hatteberg and Aurilia are trying to lead. I guess the question is what are Dunn and Jr doing?

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 12:49 PM EDT reply actions

Jr.

Is getting another early start on his vacation...

Dunn is doing his best Ryan Klesko impression.

Why can't we have a player that hits 30-40 home runs, and hits .300?

Just one would be nice...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

hey Michael

nice post by the way

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 12:49 PM EDT reply actions

amen to that

finally, a michael post i can agree with. this team just doesn't give a shit if it wins or loses. i even think the prospect of playing in october pisses them off. too much work.

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Sep 7, 2006 1:21 PM EDT reply actions

I disagree

I think the real problem with this team is not that they don't care, it's that they don't know what to do to stop the losing. I never understood why it should matter if a player "had been there before" when it came to a playoff race, but this team has made me understand it. If they were a really good team, it probably wouldn't matter, but being they are a marginal playoff team at best, it would help to have someone that could pull the team together right now.

Any player that has been on this team for more than a couple of years has been through this before. 2004 saw them play way over their head only to fade away in June and July. In 2002, they were in it through July but fell apart in August. There were many reasons why both of those teams faltered, but truthfully neither of those teams had the opportunity that this team has, given that the NL is so weak this year.

That's why these guys who have made it to the playoffs before should be stepping up and taking charge of this team. They should be in the clubhouse reminding the younger players what it takes to get to the playoffs. I mean, that's part of the reason why guys like Aurilia, Hatteberg, and Clayton are on this team in the first place, isn't it? They need to show these guys that the season doesn't end in August, even if it has seemed that way for the last 5 years.

And by the way, anybody who expects Dunn to be a leader is a fool. Leaders are either born that way (clearly Dunn wasn't) or they develop it with experience (Dunn hasn't experienced anything but losing at the MLB level). And as far as I know, the only person on this team who is being paid to lead is Jerry Narron. And if he can't get his players to stop feeling sorry for themselves, then let's get someone in here who can.

by Slyde on Sep 7, 2006 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions

leaders

You're right. Either you are a leader or you're not. But this team is missing that spark, that something extra that really good teams have. They show almost no emotion and I interpret that as they are accepting their current plight. It isn't always the best player who is the leader. Griffey has his own style but he has been through this before and he needs to be a little more demonstrative especially with the younger, less experienced players. Hatteberg and Aurilia are busting their butts, as are Freel and EdE. But I think it stops there. When only half of your regulars seem to be putting out the effort it makes it hard to win. They could survive Phillips slump and Narron's meltdowns if the other guys were carrying their weight. Was the 99 team really that much more talented? I don't think so but they had the intangibles, the leaders, the drive to win that this team is lacking.

Was Griffey at the game, in the dugout, yesterday? ESPN said that while he was available to PH he was no where to be seen. I didn't see the whole game on TV but I never saw him in the dugout

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

This Team v. '99

I think the '99 was better because of the defense. Larkin, Pokey, and Cameron up the middle, the '06 Reds don't have anything close to that. How many games have we seen lost because of terrible defense?

I know people are clamoring for Felipe Lopez back, but he is the worst fielding SS in the league. There is a reason that so many .240 hitters w/ good D play shortstop, the position is that important. We've improved there some, but w/ pitchers that are marginal to begin with, they can't get be expected to get 4 outs. That's why Villone and Parris had decent years in '99 they could rely on their D to get some extra outs.

All this jumping on Adam Dunn is just idiocy. He's one guy on the team. He likes to play golf, so what? How many major leaguers play golf on the offday or screw groupies or get drunk? So, he had it easy growing up? Is this unique for talented athletes? How many major leaguers in any sport do you really think coasted through high school and college b/c they were good athletes?

Adam Dunn is one player, he puts up 40 HRs but he can't put runners on base before him, he can't make Majewski and Bray pitch well, he can't stop Narron from relying on Franklin, all he can do is his job. Of all the Reds problems this year, Dunn is the least of them.

by JCH888 on Sep 7, 2006 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

99 team

had Greg Vaughn too who had a huge year offensively who was about as bad as Dunn is in the Outfield.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Greg Vaughn

Was also the conscience of the team. Veteran leadership that could also hit 40+ homeruns (albeit with a bunch of strikeouts).

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Sep 7, 2006 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Leaders

cashing the biggest paycheck doesn't mean that player should be expected to be the team clubhouse leader.

The manager sets the tone. The manager manages the 25 different personalities, guides his team past losing steaks, and keeps momentum during winning streaks.

I'm sure the clubhouse chemistry was very good during April. There was not a call for lack of leadership, clubhouse issues, etc. Now, all of a sudden in September there's a leadership issue?

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Exactly

Winning causes good chemistry, losing causes bad. This really should be the end of the discusion on the bull shit. I think I'm still in a bad mood (sugar or the fact that my favorite Buckeyes site has been down all day(I can't flippin wait until saturday night))

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions

i hope

that come Sunday you won't be in too bad a mood then. I'll be a little surprised if Tressel and the boys can pull it off.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep...

Gotta root for Texas in that game...

Tressel...I knew he was sleazy, but then he tried to claim he voted Texas number one...when he really voted Ohio State Number one...

Go BLue!

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions

let me be clear

I hope Ohio State wins. I will be rooting for Ohio State. I just think they are going to have a very hard time winning that game, on the road with a young defense.

And I hope Meechigan loses every game they ever play except their Notre Dame games.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions

Ouch...

At least we both hate Notre Dame the most!

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions

yep

and I really don't mind Michigan all that much. I guess they could win a few other games along the way!

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions

That's generous of you!

:-)

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions

leaders

it's easy in April. Everyone except the Pirates was in the race. The leaders have to step up when every game is crucial. It isn't the only thing but it is a big thing. ANd it should start with Narron

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

And Narron's horrible.

So lets talk about that before we talk about Dunn.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions

i like Dunn

I wouldn't trade him, even though he drives me crazy sometimes.

Narron on the other hand...

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions

People have picked the wrong day to

pick on Dunn: I'm in a Bad mood. Grumpy as hell.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions

every game is crucial

Every game is crucial every month. It is just as important to win games in the spring than it is late in the summer. A better May and the Reds are still in the WC lead.

Was the Reds leadership better in April than May?

by rojosoto on Sep 7, 2006 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions

I think

It has more to do with luck than anyone else is letting on. They've had a negative run differential all year its not surprising they are now under .500. I think you blame a lot of things but if you think the first problem is Dunn and Griffey's leadership I'm not sure what tell you. I think we can start with the pitching then go to the pitching then go to Narron then to the pitching and then to the up the middle defense. Leadership smeadership its a bunch of bullshit (yes my blood sugar is probably low). When you pitch Ryan Franklin everyday what exactly do you expect your record to be: 03 Tigers. They're not that bad but still they kept it up until football season who could really have asked for more. Hopefully next year we get a Homer who has learned to throw a changeup and curverball and is ready for the ML.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:03 PM EDT reply actions

leadership

you have good points but I think you under estimate leadership on the field. You can have the best team, see the 70's Reds, but talent alone will not win. If that was true they would have won more than 2 WS in that decade, right? It is a combination of thinks, talent, luck, leadership that gets it done. At least I think so

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions

You said it talent

comes first. The Reds don't have upper level talent right now. Baseball isn't football where you depend so much on the next guy to do your their job. You can be successful if some are not. But first and foremost it takes talent. The Reds don't have a surplus especially in the pitching like I said you pitch Ryan Franklin everyday what exactly do you expect. Give me talent(pitching) then we can start talking leadership. Until then I don't give a Rat's Ass about leadership,chemistry or the rest of that garbage.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions

luck

you are right, it could be that their luck has run out. They are 1-7 in their last 8 one-run games. They have virtually the same players (read: leaders) from when they were 22-12 in such games before that. A long baseball season does have a way of flushing out a team's true talent level. That being said, they are still only 2 games over their pythagorean record, so it's not like they've been way over their head this season.

The real stress causer is not so much this team as it is the rest of the league. In a normal season, the Reds would probably be 7 or 8 games out of the Wild Card at this point, and we all would have packed in a couple of weeks ago. But the rest of the league sucks this year, so we find ourselves getting frustrated with a team that isn't doing what it probably shouldn't have been doing in the first place.

by Slyde on Sep 7, 2006 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions

but

they were several more games above pythagoren before they lost a bunch right so they came down reality.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not certain

but I think they peaked at 5 above. That's still not out of the realm of normalcy. And I think the record in one-run games is the major reason why. I guess I meant that they weren't playing ridiculously over their heads, just at an acceptable level over.

by Slyde on Sep 7, 2006 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions

80 wins...

Is what the Pythagorean theorem would have predicted a month or so ago:

http://www.redreporter.com/comments/2006/8/8/142121/6319/2#2

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Sep 7, 2006 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Slyde

I should never test you. Lets just say I'm grumpy today and I've had enough of the Dunn bashing ( I know you weren't but I'm just grumpy) Lets pick on our best hitter instead of all the other problems this team has bullshit.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 2:51 PM EDT reply actions

Talent > Leadership

And this is a team with a comparatively small amount of talent. Perhaps if our GM wasn't trading good players for useless ones we might have a chance at having that talent, at which point you could blame the losing on a lack of "leadership", but until we get that talent, it's not having nearly enough of it that keeps this team from winning.

by Geki on Sep 7, 2006 3:00 PM EDT reply actions

Thank you

Geki. Lets talk some sense here. Geez Geki are sure it isn't the leadership that causes Ryan Franklin to suck every night but Narron uses him anyway. Leadership bull shit.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 3:04 PM EDT reply actions

BA

if he hadn't gone 10 starts in a row with out a win the Reds would still be in the lead also. I don't question the fact the Reds have some crappy players this year but if some one stepped up every once in a while things would look a lot brighter.

And yes, all of the games they blew in April, May and June would be huge right now. Fix the offense, starting by teaching them fundamentals. Remeber those? They make you better.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions

damn...

I really enjoy off day discussions

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 3:13 PM EDT reply actions

Fundamentals

Like the biggest fundamental of them all not makeing outs: BTW Dunn is the best on the team (yes I'm regarding Hatte's year as slightly flukish) Screw fundamentals like bunting they only cause outs and a less ability to score runs. Bullshit.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 3:14 PM EDT reply actions

are you serious

fundamentals like bunting, moving runners over? fundamentals like base running, throwing to the proper base? fundamentals like getting in proper postion to make a throw of field a ball? fundamentals like holding runners on base?

Don't tell me you are one of those Friday Night softball league guys who thinks it is all about hitting home runs. That is why this team sucks at games where they score under 4 runs. They, including Mr. Dunn, aren't good enough to do better than that consistently.

Fundamentals make you a better team and give you a chance to win games you have no buisness winning.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions

all right

those are all well and good except for any part that includes wasting outs by bunting or moving runners over (productive outs or that bullshit) They are important but more important would be the ability to get to the ball in the first place(range) particularly up the middle make batters miss while not walking them ( pitching) and not making outs (the absolute most important part of offense). Those "fundamentals" are nice but how much runs do think that really costs the Reds this year as opposed to Pitchers who can't pitch and fielders at Short and in Center who can't even get there. I would guess that so called gaffes on the base paths cost the Reds less than 10 runs this year while giving at bats to McClayton McCrappen, Hollandsworthless, etc and innings to Ryan Franklin, Joe Mays, Dave Williams, Majewski, etc. have cost much more than that.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions

so

you'd rather wait for a 2 or 3 run homer rather than moving a guy into scoring position where a lousy single could score a run?

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

absolutely

and the stats back that up. I can see bunting in late inning situations when all you need is one run because that's all you're going to get when you do bunt. Outs are more important than first to 2nd base.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 7, 2006 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions

yep

the stats back it up. That is why they had such a great west coast trip.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions

west coast trip

Look at the last ten games. Two wins, both by BA, and eight losses. Of the eight losses five were by one run. The others were by 8, 4, and 6 runs respectively. Sure a well timed three run bomb would have won these one run games but so would a well timed single. How many times did the Reds strand the lead off hitter on base? How many lead off doubles were wasted? A little more execution and that road trip would not have been nearly so painful. Stealing a few runs here and there can not be a bad thing, especially when this team is so inconsistent. I'm not saying play "small ball" all the time, especially in GABP, but having the ability to sure takes some pressure off Dunn and Jr to have to go deep all the time.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions

With the Reds' blowpen?

Maybe it is best to wait for the homer, unless it's the bottom of the 9th.

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Sep 7, 2006 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Bunting

In The Book, they talk about sac bunts, and run expectancy.

Essentially, they come to the conclusion that if the offensive team wants to sacrifice, the defensive team should just allow the runner to advance and accept the out; it costs that much in terms of run expectancy.

While I've referenced this book before, I'll repeat - it's very informative, and the authors have some authority: Lichtman works for the Cards, and Dolphin works for another (unnamed) team.

by sidnancy on Sep 7, 2006 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions

99 vs 06 and leadership

The 99 team would smoke the current vintage. Looking superficially:

The '99 Reds were 4th in Runs Scored and 4th in Runs Allowed. They had a +154 run differential and won 96 games.

The '06 Reds are 5th in Runs Scored and 11th in Runs Allowed. They have a -31 run differential and are on pace to win 79 games.

Did the '99 team have better leadership, intangibles etc? I don't know, probably. What I do know is that they were better between the foul lines. They scored more runs and allowed fewer. This is why many sabremetrically inclined fans discount characteristics such as leadership. So many times they're evoked after the fact to explain success and failure. As was mentioned above the same team that overachieved earlier this year is now trending toward their expected results. Did a vacuum of leadership suddenly affect the team when the calendar got to August? Maybe. I'm inclined to believe the unsexy explanation that the long season has finally separated a pretender from the contenders, as the numbers suggested it would.

I do believe leadership and intangibles affect a team. How could they not? But because there's no way to measure them I tend not to focus on them. And because they can be evoked at anytime, by anyone to explain anything they get a really bad rap amongst the sabremetric crowd. When a team consistently over- or underachieves, and when the reporting from the locker room consistently suggests chemistry or leadership is the reason, I think there's something to that. The recent Phillies are a great example.

by Red Menace on Sep 7, 2006 3:31 PM EDT reply actions

Actually,

the Phillies' problem was not underachievement. In fact, the Phillies' problem is now our problem. It's called Ranklin and Cormier.

On the '99 reds: anybody know what Steve Parris is up to these days?

Every game, we've got 'em all, you know the Big One's got the call! The Reds are on the Radio! The Reds are on the Radio!

by Gapper on Sep 7, 2006 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions

RR fantasy league

Since you are poised to vault into first place tonight you should do a league update tomorrow.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions

Leadership and Competitors

2006 "Leaders"

Aurilia
Hatteberg
Ross
Weathers
Mercker
Junior (for right and for wrong)

2006 "Competitors"

Freel
Hatte
Arroyo
Harang
Milton
Aurilia
Ross
LaRue (he does play hard)
Coffey
Weathers
Junior
El Guapo

"Followers"

BP (although he hustles)
Dunn (although he plays everyday)
Magi
McRoyster
LLM
EE (a competitive follower)

I'm in the air with Bray/Mercker/Lohse/Manos/etc.

Confucious say: "Baseball wrong - man with four balls cannot walk."

by ohiobobcat on Sep 7, 2006 3:57 PM EDT reply actions

Street named after his family???!!!

So what! Dunn's from small-town Texas, and his family might still be the only family on the road. That's what they did here in upstate NY, name the road after the only family living on it, probably usually farmers. Don't they do that in rural Ohio also? I don't think Adam had to worry about a job, not because he's a ballplayer, but because his father owns a company. His older brother is in law enforcement, however, so I doubt there's a culture of slacking-off in his family.

by pw on Sep 7, 2006 5:04 PM EDT reply actions

eastern ky

My family has a holler named for them, actually it is a branch, but that is only because they were the only ones living back up in there. Come to think of it there were an unusually large amount of banjo players in my family tree. And my tree might be more of a wreath. Very strange now that I think of it.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions

Post of the day

Outstanding, and nary a booze or "first" reference.

Confucious say: "Baseball wrong - man with four balls cannot walk."

by ohiobobcat on Sep 7, 2006 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Where is it...

And what is its name?

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions

where is what?

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions

The Branch...

That is named after your family...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Who was...

The poster on here that went to South Floyd High School?

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions

not sure who that was now

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions

A quick search...

And the Poster's name was UKTY...It looks like he hasn't posted here since July...

Caleb...I forget...how is it you are connected to the area?

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions

my family

My dad's family is from Johnson County and my mom is from Magoffin County.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 7, 2006 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions

Oh...I see...

My mom and My dad's family is from Floyd County...but I escaped having to live there for most of my life...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Sep 7, 2006 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions

re:

RE: Dunn's silver spoon upbringing

The point about Dunn's silver spoon upbringing, house on Dunn ave. stuff is that when you're one of the "haves" and adversity comes along it's not uncommon to grab the golf clubs and let the rank and file work through the rough stuff.

But Baseball ISN'T ONCE A WEEK like football. Baseball doesn't take a couple days off after a game and a light practice or two each week. Baseball IS A GRIND. And WINNING Baseball with a mid level PAYROLL means even more rough stuff!!

When you have an athlete who has COME CLOSE TO REACHING HIS POTENTIAL with his onfield performance then yes..... day off, go relax...go fish, go golf. But how Dunn reacts to THIS adversity now is illustrative of why he is still so far below his potential as a baseball player.

Dunn is STILL at the stage of development where work still pays off !!!! Had he worked smarter/harder the last 5-10 years on his baseball he'd be closer to his potential now. But he just doesn't want it. He hasn't wanted it. He will end his career with a big chunk of unrealized potential !!

The Braves starting rotation was famous for their golfing. They were also famous for All Star Game appearances, Cy Young awards, league leading W/L and ERAs......

Dunn has achieved NOTHING superstar-level. He made an all star team his rookie year and hasn't won squat since !!! He would have gone to arbitration last year to fight the Reds for budding superstar $$$$ had they not settled but he has NOT made anything close to a superstar overall contribution.

What's the line? "coffee is for closers" So is Golf !! And Dunn is NOTHING CLOSE TO BEING A CLOSER.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 7, 2006 11:00 PM EDT reply actions

haves vs have nots

Bill Simmons, bashing the Mannings this week, wrote that while baseball is a game where silver-spoon types have always found success (Griffey, Bonds), football requires a tougher attitude typical of players who grew up working class. I had always heard this expressed in various ways. I'm all for knocking down the conventional wisdom, it's just funny to hear the exact opposite expressed so soon.

by Red Menace on Sep 7, 2006 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions

re:

I see your point but I think you can look at it in different ways.

Baseball is a finesse sport which would lend itself more to the aristocrats/well to dos? perhaps?... but certainly all relative...

Carl Crawford could have gone either baseball or football and chose baseball because of the $$$ and favorable working conditions (vs. risking having his body broken in half)

The idea of mastering the muscle memory parts of baseball though (the fielding, the hitting fundamentals etc..) seem to me to be more "lunch pail". And these are the areas where I see Dunn desperately lacking......

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 7, 2006 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions

You yell a lot...

that makes me sad. :(

by Slyde on Sep 7, 2006 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions

yelling

Since you bring it up, this is the thing that annoys me the most on the internet. It seems really prevalent among argumentative types (BShakey/Neilyng did it all the time). It makes it really hard to concentrate on someone's rhetoric when their formatic is so obnoxious.

I can image Shakespeare posting today:

Doubt THOU that the stars are FIRE
Doubt that the SUN doth move
Doubt TRUTH to be a LIAR
But NEVER DOUBT MY LOVE!!!!!

by Red Menace on Sep 7, 2006 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Gotta admit

I'm not sure a lot of football players push their sons into following their footsteps.

James Brooks might have an opportunity to have one of his gaggle of offspring hit the gridiron.

To be fair, I'm not sure Shawn Kemp will be able to coax one of his dozen to be FAN-tastic.

Confucious say: "Baseball wrong - man with four balls cannot walk."

by ohiobobcat on Sep 7, 2006 11:34 PM EDT reply actions

re:

and I left out perhaps the biggest lunch pail element ..... the "mental" part of baseball...

learning the subtleties, the situational aspects etc... you never pick those up if your approach is all about hitting one into the river or striking out every at bat. And you also never pick up the fielding finer points if your only motivation for wearing a glove is so you can hit.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 7, 2006 11:59 PM EDT reply actions

What's the organization's role?

If Dunn's attitude/approach to the game is so bad, as you suggest, why didn't the development staff and current coaches step in? You can't put all the blame on Dunn if he's not corrected, but rather given a long-term contract. Scouts are supposedly looking at attitude and coachability even before the player is drafted. Your argument presumes there's been a conspiracy with all the various Reds scouts, coaches, GM's, and managers promoting an undeserving Dunn since 1998. Are you suggesting that only college players should be drafted/signed because they're more likely to have it between the ears? If so, I submit you are elitist,

by pw on Sep 8, 2006 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions

re

I submit the following in regards to the reds organization of the past decade??

Reds have been LOSERS for a long time. Like any organization which grows accustomed to losing there is typically broken/bad leadership at the top and/or lack of resources. Either way the result is the same i.e. you get lots of middle management mentalities who are focused on keeping their jobs and are more "organizational" than they are committed to quality, success and winning... maybe inside their committment is there but the environment has rendered them unable.

So yes, Dunn is drafted as a budding slugger/superstar. It is easy to imagine dunn getting mostly just pats on the butt and encouragement for 5+ years. Sure there were likely individuals who spoke up but Dunn had quite a bit of clout - as a "budding star", fan fave and homerun hitter....

Dunn has noone to blame but himself. And Reds have noone to blame but themselves for letting it go on for 6 years.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Krivsky was from outside...

the Reds organization, but heavily scouted the Reds. If it's so apparent that Dunn isn't worth the money/status, why did Krivsky make it a priority to sign him soon after he was made GM?

by pw on Sep 8, 2006 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

re:

frankly, that does scare me a little that Krivsky might have been seduced by the HR too. However, after watching Dunn closely this year as he no doubt has, I have to think he wouldn't do that contract again. And I'm hoping he is presently scheming ways to move that contract...

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 8, 2006 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions