Try Evaluating Adam Dunn from this Perspective
To all of you defending Dunn and Dunn-type production and who see Dunn as a contributor to this Reds team..............
Try looking at Dunn "contributions" from the other direction. This player in question puts up the following numbers annually:
-Leads (or close to it) all outfielders in errors every year
-Leads the majors and sets new all time records in strikeouts every year
-hits sub-.250 every year
-has a lifetime BA with RISP which is ~.215
-doesn't run the bases well, doesn't steal bases
Those are things you can count on every day, every year with Dunn. So.... what type of "production" in homeruns and BBs would it take for you to put up with the above (which are all clearly BAD) ??
Remember Dunn BBs aren't the same as BBs to base stealers or table setters. And Remember close to 60% of Dunn homeruns are SOLOS (113 of 198).
If it was 25 homeruns and 75 BBs, surely that wouldn't be enough right? You all wouldnt put up with league leading error numbers and hitting struggles just for 25 HRs and 75 BBs would you?
So you who suppport Dunn are effetively saying the extra 15 homeruns and 25 BBs over the course of 162 game season is enough to sway you? Those extra 15 homeruns (9 of which will be solo) and 25 BBs are enough to endure all the bad that Dunn brings every night?
When you start with the things you get EVERY NIGHT from Dunn (bad defense, lots of Ks, low BA, no baserunning, low motor, questionable concentration/focus) it would take a whole lot more than 100 BBs and 40 HRs (mostly solos) for me to want to have him anywhere near the starting lineup every night especially as one of the team's HIGHEST PAID every day players.
And has for hoping that there is still "improvement" to his game yet to come?? He has had 6 years as a starter now. With his body type he has long since peaked physically he is on the downturn physically. He hasn't improved any game component in first 6 years how can he be expected to improve now?
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68 comments
Comments
Oh God.
The announcers and anaylsts all say the same thing: he does K a lot, but everyone knows around every 14 or 15 ABs Dunn will connect on one. You have to imagine his most recent slump is a by product of Griffey not being in the lineup. When Griffey is out Dunner sees even less quality pitches, especially late in the game. Last night he was protected by Brandon Phillips. What team would not rather face Phillips than Dunn? Dunn isn't going to get anything to hit hard in that situation. As far as the HRs being solo shots, who cares? It is not his fault people in front of him are not getting on base.
Just back off of him a bit Mikey. Let him win us a playoff berth, and if he can't get that for us, then you can bash him or whatever, but give him the respect he deserves. He has done some amazing things within the organization records. 3 straight years of 40 Homers (Only been done one other time) is already puching close to the all time Reds-Homers List (already surpassed Barry Larkin), lets just leave the man alone.
by MixFMKyle on Sep 13, 2006 10:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
EVERY NIGHT
Leadoff homeruns has already been covered in detail. I don't know what the numbers are this year, but I've already touched on this for the previous 2-3 years. Adam Dunn leads off an inning 2nd most on the team to the leadoff hitter because he bats 5th/6th. And he typically is top 2/3 in batting with the bases empty. So, to say that a high % of his HR are solo shots does not put it in the perspective of RBI opportunities.
by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
try evaluating you favorite player
Makes more outs on the basebath than Adam Dunn
Makes more outs at the plate per Adam Dunn
(wait a minute he gets on less but makes more outs on the basepath amazing)
Does not hit for any power
Hits ~ .178 with runners in Scoring position
Can't stay healthy
Can't produce over the long haul, gets worn down etc.
Shut up.
by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand
He will be over 40 home runs and 100 RBI again. That in and of itself is Reds history. He walks alot. And anytime any player walks he is setting the table for someone else. The guy plays every day.
His big down sides to me are the high strike outs (and a great hitter will make an out 70% of the time anyway)and his occasional lack of hustle on defense. As my grand pappy always said you have to take the rough with the smooth. Dunn stays on my team.
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
based on that tango chart a man on first base with 2 out will only come around to score 14% of the time.......
those are tactical walks by the pitcher. That's the open jump shot that the defense wants you to take. Those are like uncontested stolen bases. Not practical probably to treat them differently statistically but just shows how OBP can overstate.......
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
as far as uncontested stolen bases, if they lead to runs then they are worth it.
what player would you rather see in left field for the Reds?
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't speak to these specifics
by Slyde on Sep 13, 2006 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
without Dunn
by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: announcers/analysts....
As professionals in the field they communicate this distaste for Dunn by saying nothing or by some back handed, half hearted commentary. I, as a message board poster, reds fan and someone who has had to watch Dunn for years now as he blocks opportunity for other young cincy outfielders .... don't feel any obligation to sticking to that level of political correctedness.
In a HR-era like we have been in for the past decade+ it is no great feat to hit 40 homeruns when you are swinging for the fences every at bat and have the benefit of being allowed to strikeout 180 times without fear of being benched.
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
blocking players
How many young cincy outfielder's opportunities have you blocked? Except for Luke Stowe, of course.
Thanks,
Scott in Oakland
by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why do people bother responding?
(all in good fun, of course)
I think Michael is Dunn just trying to have some fun. Anyone else second this theory?
by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hmmmmmm
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't think so.
Michael seems far too intelligent to pass for Dunn.
by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe he has
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmmm
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
O.k., The Duke, Stumpy...
by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what was that cartoon dog's name?
by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His name is Homer.
I've spoken with Homer, which is why I knew that the 2-run HR he hit the other night should really be considered a solo homerun, since Adam actually forgot Aurilia was on first at the time and was actually trying to hit a solo homerun.
by Mini Michael on Sep 13, 2006 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious
by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And his middle initial is K.
by Mini Michael on Sep 13, 2006 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent!
by Paul Householder on Sep 13, 2006 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam from Milwaukee wants to know....
by ohiobobcat on Sep 13, 2006 3:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Walks don't equal outs
Strikeouts equal 1 (one) out, better than double plays (2 outs for those of you scoring at home...or for those of you home alone)
by biggsd on Sep 13, 2006 6:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Alright, Michael
-No argument. He's a bad defender.
-Strikeouts are irrelevant to run production. Until you can produce proof that there is a relationship between the two, Dunn's strikeout numbers have no bearing on his value to the team.
-A low batting average is only a problem when it causes a low OBP. As this is not the case with Dunn, low BA's have no bearing on his value to the team.
-His career BA with RISP weights his early struggles the same as his recent successes. The fact that he hit .170 with RISP in 2003 tells me nothing about his ability to hit in those situations now. His OBP and SLG with RISP have both increased over his numbers in other situations over the last 2 years. That's more relevant.
-He's 6 for 6 in stolen bases this year. As slyde pointed out, he's led the team in scoring from first on non-HRs the last few years. But wait, you go by what you see, right?
There's your answers to the bulleted points. I'll break it up a little and answer the rest of your inane rants in another post.
by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Part II
Dunn, from 2003-2005, drove in an average of 1.6 runs with each of his HR's. Applying that to the additional 15 HR's over your theoretical player, his HR's account for an additional 24 runs. Dunn, from 2003-2005, scored on 35% of his non-HR times on base. Apply that to the additional walk total, and he scores 8 additional runs as a result of his walks. Dunn, therefore, is worth 32 runs over that player.
The closest player I could find to your theoretical was, ironically, Austin Kearns (22HR, 76BB). Kearns has accounted for 138 runs (81R+79RBI-22HR). Dunn's additional 32 runs make him ~30% more valuable than Kearns. I'd say that's worth it.
One more post, and this is the fun one...
by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Part III
All stats must come with a context. Before you go blindly posting stats and saying that Dunn sucks as a result, perhaps you should do some research as to what a good number is.
Take, for example, your assertion that because 57% of Dunn's HR's are solo shots, the guy obviously can't hit with runners on base. Surely, a good number for that would be 35-40%, right? And a great clutch hitter like Pujols, Ortiz or Jeter, they have to hit 75% of their HR's with men on base to have built their great clutch reputations.
Well, let's check. These numbers are from 2003-2005 (I looked at 2006 numbers, but didn't feel like doing twice the calculation. The 2006 numbers do not differ greatly from the 2003-2005 numbers).
Pujols - 54% solo HR's
Dunn - 57% solo HR's
Ortiz - 60% solo HR's
Jeter - 77% solo HR's
So, there you go, Michael. I've evaluated it from your perspective, and came to the same conclusions I did before. Now, why don't you evaluate him from my perspective and see what you come up with. You can start by answering those multiple choice questions I gave you a few weeks ago.
by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: BLee solo jacks
I hate to break this to you BLee. You seem so proud of yourself.
Dunn certainly does NOT have a knack for the multi-run homer. But the point to be made is not that Dunn has any hugely greater affinity for solo jacks than other homerun hitters - certainly most homerun hitters get their share of solos. The point is most of your bettter homerun hitters don't have sub-.250 lifetime batting averages and .220 BAs with RISP.
Dunn walks and gets homeruns. His walks are soft and close to 60% of his homeruns are solos.
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Adam Dunn walks are Bottom Pairs
That bears repeating. Adam Dunn walks are like bottom pairs. They count in the box score as a "pair" but more often than not they'll get beat by a middle pair or the high pair.
A bottom pair needs more to be of much use. Dunn sitting on first means very little. He doesnt steal second. He needs someone else to do the heavy lifting of driving his slow A$$ all the way around the bases to score.
Bottom pairs get you second or third place after other weaker hands fold. Build around Adam and you can compete for half a year maybe... then make a run but fall short.
If you can't have Albert Pujols pocket aces, you're better off picking your spots with some suited connectors or be patient and wait for your hand. Going with bottom pairs means pairs on the stat sheet but lots of losing...........
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: bottom pairs
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
Hopper, Denorfia, Hollandsworth, Wise can all compete for PT. And you can look for some other talent in the off season.... meanwhile you'll free up 10 million for pitching next year.....
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopper, Denorfia, Hollandsworth, Wise
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
Dunn is a "bottom pair". He's a "middle pair" at best. Yes, he'll hit homeruns, he'll get walks but you lose the hand.
I'll take a chance on any young, unproven guys to find out who really wants it. Who is willing to do whatever it takes to turn themself into a legitimate winning baseball player........
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn
Hrs Dunn 198 other guy 189
RBI Dunn 465 other guy 549
BB Dunn 563 other guy 564
K Dunn 904 other guy 828
by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: slyde backhanded compliment...
Both Grande and Mercker just gave Dunn a backhanded complement cause they both know he sucks but they have to be politically correct.
by Slyde on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 07:25:55 PM EST
[ Reply to This ]
I heard it slyde !! Mercker: "as good as he wants to be" and "what a great young guy he is"
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why couldn't
by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
im not afraid of game threads ;) im just in the middle of poker tourney and somebody in this thread made comment earlier about how analysts/commentators all rave about Dunn...
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, I see.
by sukr on Sep 14, 2006 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'd get less attention in the game thread
by Geki on Sep 13, 2006 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: Caleb and your "guy"...
It has been clear to me for years now that Dunn doesn't have the want to and focus to make himself a legitimate baseball player. I have concluded he'll always be underachieving and struggling (yet connecting enough to put up "some" numbers).......
whoever that "guy" is ?.. whether it is reggie jackson, mcGwire, strawberry whoever??.... you'd want to pay attention to trends, improvements, other factors and intangibles as well. McGwire was quite possibly headed out of baseball before starting steroids with the As.....(check out McGwire post-1992 and see if you don't smell a fish).....you'll want to look to see if player is improving? or is he like dunn, staying flat with his production ......
Dunn has had 6 years to show he can eliminate weaknesses in his game, show improvement, raise his game a level - he hasn't. He has squeezed playing time in the past from guys like Guillen, Pena, Freel, Denorfia etc.... We now have Hopper to add to the list who has also earned opportunity.
by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mike Schmidt...
As far as your list of players he has "squeezed time from" would you really have Guillen or Pena playing in front of Dunn. Your intangible and trends there are Guillen is a head case and a club house cancer and Pena is probably the worst outfield defender I have seen in the last 40 years.
What player has a "top pair" that would beat out Dunn? None that you have named.
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
You know the story (to quote grande) on schmidt...
He was known for taking game too seriously. He worked every waking moment to improve. He was no fun in the clubhouse, fans didn't like him, he was very serious, dedicated....(he admits extreme committment probably to a fault).......It was no surprise that Schmidt did in fact improve.
Furthermore, though Schmidt struck out alot, hit for low avg. (just like Dunn)... two things that Schmidt did which Dunn doesn't was 1)run the bases and 2)MOST IMPORTANTLY was constantly improving his fielding. By 1976 (his 4th year) he started his string of 10 gold gloves.
I for one, wouldn't be on Dunn as hard and wouldn't have been on Dunn as hard in past years had he found some other ways to contribute. Dunn could have made special effort to be better fit (would have improved his game in many ways) but instead of losing 20-30 pounds he put on 30p pounds, he could have made special effort to improve defense whatever it took - he did neither.
I understand where you're coming from statistically. Yes, there certainly are similarities (the relative BA struggles, Ks, HRs, even walks...) but in this case when you look past the numbers and ask does it pass the "reasonableness test" the answer is a resounding NO. These guys are cut from totally different cloths.
I see absolutely no evidence to suggest that there is any improvement forthcoming with Dunn.
by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OTHER WAYS TO CONTRIBUTE
And how do you know how hard he works? Do you what his daily routine is? The guy plays every day. In this day and age that is something to appreciate.
Could he improve? Yes. Will he improve? Only time will tell. But I just do not undertand how you kick to the curb a guy who hits 40 hr with 100 RBI every year so easily.
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
STOP GIVING THE TIME OF DAY TO THIS DUMBASS
by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 11:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its an addiction
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More lies
As you know, this is a lie. Dunn does have the single-season record, but that was 3 years ago. His strikeouts are up this year, but it will only be his 2nd year among the top 30 all-time.
hits sub-.250 every year
As you know, this doesn't matter; his lifetime OBP is over .380.
has a lifetime BA with RISP which is ~.215
As you know, this also doesn't matter; over time, his (like everyone's) BA with RISP will gravitate towards his overall BA. But you also know this doesn't matter because he won't get as many good pitches in those situations; mistakes to Dunn cost 2 runs instead of 1.
doesn't run the bases well, doesn't steal bases
As you know, this is also a lie. In a previous diary entry, I showed you that Dunn scores more runs, both in number and in terms of % of times on base (not via HR), than the "speedster" Ichiro.
Since you know all of these things, I can only guess that you enjoy lying.
by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 9:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
By the way
You also know that the only reason Dunn has the single-season strikeout record is that Jose Hernandez was benched for 10 games so that he wouldn't break it.
by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"reasonableness test"
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 10:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"WHAT'S IT GOT TO DO WITH BASEBALL"?
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Field of Dreams
by Slyde on Sep 14, 2006 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bonus bonus points
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Michael, you're really making this too easy....
Why do some people insist upon blaming a team's best player for its shortcomings? And why does this team's fans continue to evaluate players based upon how they look when they play--their "grit"--(Freel, Stynes, etc.) instead of the productivity of their play (E. Davis, Dunn, etc.)?
by terry324 on Sep 14, 2006 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
however, when certain players are grossly inferior in critical parts of the game to close your eyes to that is myopic and an inaccurate appraisal of the player's overall contribution.
Areas where Dunn is grossly inferior relative to other solid major leaguers and other solid power hitters:
-defense
-strikeout propensity
-batting average
-batting average with RISP
-focus, smarts, situational baseball
(just to name a handful)
by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you won't respond
How do you know Dunn doesn't "focus" or have "smarts"?
Also, get it through your thick head:
STRIKEOUTS DON'T MATTER. THEY ARE NO BETTER, AND NO WORSE, THAN ANY OTHER TYPE OF OUT.
BATTING AVERAGE DOESN'T MATTER NEARLY AS MUCH AS ON BASE PERCENTAGE. IT IS THE ABILITY TO AVOID OUTS, NOT GET HITS, THAT IS IMPORTANT.
These aren't off-the-cuff remarks by some looney on an Internet web board; guys who get paid lots of money by Major League baseball teams have spent years going over the data, and proven these things. Heck, Branch Rickey showed the importance of OBP back in the 40's and 50's while building the great Dodgers teams of the time.
Quit the "yea, but"s and "what if"s already. You pull these asinine hypothetical situations out of your butt to try to show a hitter like Dunn isn't as valuable as every single person who follows baseball thinks he is, then when actual, you know, logic and stats are used to disprove you, you pull out another one. Of the most recent 20 diary entries on this site, 3 have been started by you, harping on the same tired crap. You can't convice anybody (which shouldn't be a surprise - it'd be like trying to convice someone the sky is orange).
"Try Evaluating Adam Dunn from this Perspective": He's one of the better hitters in the league (and has been the Reds' best for each of his 4 full seasons, and nearly was in 116 games one year), and he's paid less than any other OF who hits like him and is arb eligible or a free agent.
by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
-lost weight instead of gained weight in his first years in the bigs
-become better with contact hitting
-become better with situational hitting
-become better defensively
-become better using the whole field
hey, what do you know Dunn just struckout again??
by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 2:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll bite
- Uh, he was 21 years old. Lots of 21 year olds put on weight. Also, it might surprise you to learn that most 1st year pro athletes put on weight - better nutrition, better weight training.
- Look at his walk rates. He doesn't get a lot of good pitches to hit.
- Look at his walk rates. Consider 3 situations: RISP, RISP with 2 outs, and all other AB. Guess when Dunn's OBP is highest, and when is it lowest? I'll give you a hint: Last year, with RISP/2 outs, his OBP was .512. Pitchers know a mistake costs them 2 runs, not 1. Maybe, just maybe, his BA is so low in those situations because he knows he won't get anything good to swing at, so he tries to hit bad pitches.
- No one disputes his defense is bad. That's the only arguement you make that has even a sliver of truth or logic behind it.
- Ted Williams (ever hear of him? I'm told he was pretty good in his day) saw the defensive shift every day. "Using the whole field" is stupid if it takes away your power. (And no, I'm not comparing Williams to Dunn; I use him as an example of how stupid your remark is)
by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
uncle uncle uncle
trade him, better yet dfa the wothless slug
by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hahaha...
Where are my Rec Specs?
by Chris Sabo on Sep 14, 2006 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Michael...
Step up to the plate. Answer the questions I posed in the last few threads, and evaluate Dunn based on your responses to those. It's the least you can do.
by BLee2525 on Sep 14, 2006 6:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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