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Try Evaluating Adam Dunn from this Perspective

To all of you defending Dunn and Dunn-type production and who see Dunn as a contributor to this Reds team..............

Try looking at Dunn "contributions" from the other direction. This player in question puts up the following numbers annually:

-Leads (or close to it) all outfielders in errors every year
-Leads the majors and sets new all time records in strikeouts every year
-hits sub-.250 every year
-has a lifetime BA with RISP which is ~.215
-doesn't run the bases well, doesn't steal bases

Those are things you can count on every day, every year with Dunn. So.... what type of "production" in homeruns and BBs would it take for you to put up with the above (which are all clearly BAD) ??

Remember Dunn BBs aren't the same as BBs to base stealers or table setters. And Remember close to 60% of Dunn homeruns are SOLOS (113 of 198).

If it was 25 homeruns and 75 BBs, surely that wouldn't be enough right? You all wouldnt put up with league leading error numbers and hitting struggles just for 25 HRs and 75 BBs would you?

So you who suppport Dunn are effetively saying the extra 15 homeruns and 25 BBs over the course of 162 game season is enough to sway you? Those extra 15 homeruns (9 of which will be solo) and 25 BBs are enough to endure all the bad that Dunn brings every night?

When you start with the things you get EVERY NIGHT from Dunn (bad defense, lots of Ks, low BA, no baserunning, low motor, questionable concentration/focus) it would take a whole lot more than 100 BBs and 40 HRs (mostly solos) for me to want to have him anywhere near the starting lineup every night especially as one of the team's HIGHEST PAID every day players.

And has for hoping that there is still "improvement" to his game yet to come?? He has had 6 years as a starter now. With his body type he has long since peaked physically he is on the downturn physically.  He hasn't improved any game component in first 6 years how can he be expected to improve now?

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Oh God.
Here we go again.  Michael I pose this question to you.  If the season came down to a one game play-off and we were down one in the bottom of the 9th with one on base and Dunn blasted one for the walk off win, would you instantly become a Dunn fan?  If you were a true Reds fan, You would.

The announcers and anaylsts all say the same thing:  he does K a lot, but everyone knows around every 14 or 15 ABs Dunn will connect on one.  You have to imagine his most recent slump is a by product of Griffey not being in the lineup.  When Griffey is out Dunner sees even less quality pitches, especially late in the game.  Last night he was protected by Brandon Phillips.  What team would not rather face Phillips than Dunn?  Dunn isn't going to get anything to hit hard in that situation.  As far as the HRs being solo shots, who cares?  It is not his fault people in front of him are not getting on base.  

Just back off of him a bit Mikey.  Let him  win us a playoff berth, and if he can't get that for us, then you can bash him or whatever, but give him the respect he deserves.  He has done some amazing things within the organization records.  3 straight years of 40 Homers (Only been done one other time) is already puching close to the all time Reds-Homers List (already surpassed Barry Larkin), lets just leave the man alone.

by MixFMKyle on Sep 13, 2006 10:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

EVERY NIGHT
Would imply that he didn't steal 6 bases, that he didn't take an extra base the other night that ended up winning the game, and that he didn't have 251 putouts or 5 outfield assists.  

Leadoff homeruns has already been covered in detail.  I don't know what the numbers are this year, but I've already touched on this for the previous 2-3 years.  Adam Dunn leads off an inning 2nd most on the team to the leadoff hitter because he bats 5th/6th.  And he typically is top 2/3 in batting with the bases empty.  So, to say that a high % of his HR are solo shots does not put it in the perspective of RBI opportunities.  

by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 10:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

try evaluating you favorite player
Probably Ryan Freel from this perspective.
Makes more outs on the basebath than Adam Dunn
Makes more outs at the plate per Adam Dunn
(wait a minute he gets on less but makes more outs on the basepath amazing)
Does not hit for any power
Hits ~ .178 with runners in Scoring position
Can't stay healthy
Can't produce over the long haul, gets worn down etc.

Shut up.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 11:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand
I know I am old school and don't always look at, or put the same stock in, the newer ways of measuring players but I don't see how Dunn as a  detriment to the team.

He will be over 40 home runs and 100 RBI again. That in and of itself is Reds history. He walks alot. And anytime any player walks he is setting the table for someone else. The guy plays every day.

His big down sides to me are the high strike outs (and a great hitter will make an out 70% of the time anyway)and his occasional lack of hustle on defense. As my grand pappy always said you have to take the rough with the smooth. Dunn stays on my team.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 12:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re:
just for kicks i did a quick look at the number of 2 out walks Dunn got with first base open this year (24 of them!)  

based on that tango chart a man on first base with 2 out will only come around to score 14% of the time.......

those are tactical walks by the pitcher. That's the open jump shot that the defense wants you to take. Those are like uncontested stolen bases. Not practical probably to treat them differently statistically but just shows how OBP can overstate.......

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok
out of curiousity how many times did he score out of the 24? how many of the 24 were intentional? what about his other 76 walks? how many two out walks total?

as far as uncontested stolen bases, if they lead to runs then they are worth it.

what player would you rather see in left field for the Reds?

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't speak to these specifics
since I don't have the 2006 data yet, but in 2005, Dunn led the Reds in scoring directly from first base on non-home runs.  In 2004, he was second to Larkin.  And this was all while batting 5th or 6th most of the year and having lighter hitting players hitting behind him.

by Slyde on Sep 13, 2006 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

without Dunn
based on your tango chart, how many fewer runs score if Dunn isn't on first base?  

by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: announcers/analysts....
You hear some announcers/analysts say what you noted, however, there are a whole lot of them who (like I) just don't have any use for Dunn.

As professionals in the field they communicate this distaste for Dunn by saying nothing or by some back handed, half hearted commentary.  I, as a message board poster, reds fan and someone who has had to watch Dunn for years now as he blocks opportunity for other young cincy outfielders .... don't feel any obligation to sticking to that level of political correctedness.

In a HR-era like we have been in for the past decade+ it is no great feat to hit 40 homeruns when you are swinging for the fences every at bat and have the benefit of being allowed to strikeout 180 times without fear of being benched.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 2:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

blocking players
Dear Adam in Milwaukee (aka Michael):
How many young cincy outfielder's opportunities have you blocked?  Except for Luke Stowe, of course.

Thanks,
Scott in Oakland

by rojosoto on Sep 13, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why do people bother responding?
Michael, you're on notice.

(all in good fun, of course)

I think Michael is Dunn just trying to have some fun.  Anyone else second this theory?

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 2:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hmmmmmm
he never seems to post during a game does he? and no one has ever seen them together have they?
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't think so.
If it were Adam, the posts would consist of "Dunn sucks, and stuff. Why do you guys like him, cause he  doesn't do good, ever, and stuff."

Michael seems far too intelligent to pass for Dunn.

I don't trust boobs.

by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe he has
his own Farney who ghost writes for him. What would Dunn's Farney be named?
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tex?
I don't trust boobs.

by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmmm
That sounds more like LaRue
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

O.k., The Duke, Stumpy...
I don't know. What do you got?
I don't trust boobs.

by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what was that cartoon dog's name?
droopy?  yeah, i think droopy works.
"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

His name is Homer.
Which is why he tries to hit all the solo homeruns and gets all the strikeouts.

I've spoken with Homer, which is why I knew that the 2-run HR he hit the other night should really be considered a solo homerun, since Adam actually forgot Aurilia was on first at the time and was actually trying to hit a solo homerun.

Little voices are people too.

by Mini Michael on Sep 13, 2006 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hilarious
As long as Michael is posting Mini Michael has to post to. This is fantastic stuff. I mean Mini Michael actually brings more joy to my life than farney. If we have to have a Michael to bring us Mini Michael then so be it.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And his middle initial is K.
Little voices are people too.

by Mini Michael on Sep 13, 2006 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent!
Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Sep 13, 2006 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

doh
awesome baby
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also
maybe we can change the Reds uniforms to camoflauge so Dunn can't see the players on base and change the scoreboard to reflect no outs so he'll think he's leading off the inning so he can homerun in all his atbats.

by DisplacedFan on Sep 13, 2006 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adam from Milwaukee wants to know....
if Michael is wearing a shirt.  
Confucious say: "Baseball wrong - man with four balls cannot walk."

by ohiobobcat on Sep 13, 2006 3:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Walks don't equal outs
Do we have to beat this into someone's head?

Strikeouts equal 1 (one) out, better than double plays (2 outs for those of you scoring at home...or for those of you home alone)

by biggsd on Sep 13, 2006 6:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Alright, Michael
Once again, I'll answer your argument point-by-point, and you will likely respond either by saying "I go by what I see," or answering a question completely unrelated to the argument I post.  It happens every time, and I don't even know why I try anymore, but....

-No argument.  He's a bad defender.

-Strikeouts are irrelevant to run production.  Until you can produce proof that there is a relationship between the two, Dunn's strikeout numbers have no bearing on his value to the team.

-A low batting average is only a problem when it causes a low OBP.  As this is not the case with Dunn, low BA's have no bearing on his value to the team.

-His career BA with RISP weights his early struggles the same as his recent successes.  The fact that he hit .170 with RISP in 2003 tells me nothing about his ability to hit in those situations now.  His OBP and SLG with RISP have both increased over his numbers in other situations over the last 2 years.  That's more relevant.

-He's 6 for 6 in stolen bases this year.  As slyde pointed out, he's led the team in scoring from first on non-HRs the last few years.  But wait, you go by what you see, right?

There's your answers to the bulleted points.  I'll break it up a little and answer the rest of your inane rants in another post.

by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Part II
The first part of your post references his 15 extra HR's and 25 extra BB's over a decent 25-HR, 75BB hitter, and whether the production is worth it.

Dunn, from 2003-2005, drove in an average of 1.6 runs with each of his HR's.  Applying that to the additional 15 HR's over your theoretical player, his HR's account for an additional 24 runs.  Dunn, from 2003-2005, scored on 35% of his non-HR times on base.  Apply that to the additional walk total, and he scores 8 additional runs as a result of his walks.  Dunn, therefore, is worth 32 runs over that player.

The closest player I could find to your theoretical was, ironically, Austin Kearns (22HR, 76BB).  Kearns has accounted for 138 runs (81R+79RBI-22HR).  Dunn's additional 32 runs make him ~30% more valuable than Kearns.  I'd say that's worth it.

One more post, and this is the fun one...

by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Part III
aka the "Solo Jack" argument

All stats must come with a context.  Before you go blindly posting stats and saying that Dunn sucks as a result, perhaps you should do some research as to what a good number is.

Take, for example, your assertion that because 57% of Dunn's HR's are solo shots, the guy obviously can't hit with runners on base.  Surely, a good number for that would be 35-40%, right?  And a great clutch hitter like Pujols, Ortiz or Jeter, they have to hit 75% of their HR's with men on base to have built their great clutch reputations.

Well, let's check.  These numbers are from 2003-2005 (I looked at 2006 numbers, but didn't feel like doing twice the calculation.  The 2006 numbers do not differ greatly from the 2003-2005 numbers).

Pujols - 54% solo HR's
Dunn - 57% solo HR's
Ortiz - 60% solo HR's
Jeter - 77% solo HR's

So, there you go, Michael.  I've evaluated it from your perspective, and came to the same conclusions I did before.  Now, why don't you evaluate him from my perspective and see what you come up with.  You can start by answering those multiple choice questions I gave you a few weeks ago.

by BLee2525 on Sep 13, 2006 6:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re: BLee solo jacks
Re: solo jacks

I hate to break this to you BLee. You seem so proud of yourself.

Dunn certainly does NOT have a knack for the multi-run homer. But the point to be made is not that Dunn has any hugely greater affinity for solo jacks than other homerun hitters - certainly most homerun hitters get their share of solos.  The point is most of your bettter homerun hitters don't have sub-.250 lifetime batting averages and .220 BAs with RISP.

Dunn walks and gets homeruns. His walks are soft and close to 60% of his homeruns are solos.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Adam Dunn walks are Bottom Pairs
Adam Dunn walks are like Bottom Pairs.

That bears repeating. Adam Dunn walks are like bottom pairs. They count in the box score as a "pair" but more often than not they'll get beat by a middle pair or the high pair.

A bottom pair needs more to be of much use. Dunn sitting on first means very little. He doesnt steal second. He needs someone else to do the heavy lifting of driving his slow A$$ all the way around the bases to score.

Bottom pairs get you second or third place after other weaker hands fold. Build around Adam and you can compete for half a year maybe... then make a run but fall short.

If you can't have Albert Pujols pocket aces, you're better off picking your spots with some suited connectors or be patient and wait for your hand. Going with bottom pairs means pairs on the stat sheet but lots of losing...........

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re: bottom pairs
relying on adam dunn walks is settling for second or third place. It's lots of losing.
Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re:
you got your pair ! but you lose the hand
Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Michael
who should be the Reds left fielder then?
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 8:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re:
a little competition would be just fine.....

Hopper, Denorfia, Hollandsworth, Wise can all compete for PT.  And you can look for some other talent in the off season.... meanwhile you'll free up 10 million for pitching next year.....

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

talent?
none there that I see
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hopper, Denorfia, Hollandsworth, Wise
would you really play one of those guys every day over Dunn?
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re:
any one of them frankly....

Dunn is a "bottom pair". He's a "middle pair" at best. Yes, he'll hit homeruns, he'll get walks but you lose the hand.

I'll take a chance on any young, unproven guys to find out who really wants it. Who is willing to do whatever it takes to turn themself into a legitimate winning baseball player........

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dunn
Why not give him a chance? He is a young player with this being his 6th full season. I found another guy who was pretty comparable after 6 full seasons. Baseball is about improving and evolving as a person and player. Adam Dunn is a guy who I would lock up and keep as a Red for a very long time.

Hrs  Dunn 198  other guy 189
RBI  Dunn 465  other guy 549
BB   Dunn 563  other guy 564
K    Dunn 904  other guy 828

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i forgot
Batting Avg

Dunn .247  Other Guy .255

Pretty close all the way around I think.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 13, 2006 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: slyde backhanded compliment...
[new] Did you notice right there?
Both Grande and Mercker just gave Dunn a backhanded complement cause they both know he sucks but they have to be politically correct.

by Slyde on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 07:25:55 PM EST
[ Reply to This ]  

I heard it slyde !!  Mercker: "as good as he wants to be"   and "what a great young guy he is"

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 9:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why couldn't
you post this in the game thread?
I don't trust boobs.

by sukr on Sep 13, 2006 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re:
i guess i could have ;)

im not afraid of game threads ;) im just in the middle of poker tourney and somebody in this thread made comment earlier about how analysts/commentators all rave about Dunn...

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, I see.
As long as you know there are rumors floating around that you are the heavy swinger himself. Now everyone will have to check out the time stamp to confirm that you posted during a game, that's all. Hey, wait a minute.....wasn't Dunn pulled from the game at this point? Hmmmm.
I don't trust boobs.

by sukr on Sep 14, 2006 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re: Caleb and your "guy"...
staying with the poker analogy, winning is about NOT having to play a bad hand all the way till the end to find out you're holding a bottom or middle pair.

It has been clear to me for years now that Dunn doesn't have the want to and focus to make himself a legitimate baseball player. I have concluded he'll always be underachieving and struggling (yet connecting enough to put up "some" numbers).......

whoever that "guy" is ?.. whether it is reggie jackson, mcGwire, strawberry whoever??.... you'd want to pay attention to trends, improvements, other factors and intangibles as well. McGwire was quite possibly headed out of baseball before starting steroids with the As.....(check out McGwire post-1992 and see if you don't smell a fish).....you'll want to look to see if player is improving? or is he like dunn, staying flat with his production ......

Dunn has had 6 years to show he can eliminate weaknesses in his game, show improvement, raise his game a level - he hasn't.  He has squeezed playing time in the past from guys like Guillen, Pena, Freel, Denorfia etc....  We now have Hopper to add to the list who has also earned opportunity.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 13, 2006 11:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Mike Schmidt...
was the other guy. He was terrible when he came up but he improved after a few years. His production was pretty much the same every year early in his career and he was a really bad defender. But he contributed. And he steadily improved. If you had asked most people in 1978 if they thought Schmidt would be a HOFer the answer would have been a resounding no.

As far as your list of players he has "squeezed time from" would you really have Guillen or Pena playing in front of Dunn. Your intangible and trends there are Guillen is a head case and a club house cancer and Pena is probably the worst outfield defender I have seen in the last 40 years.

What player has a "top pair" that would beat out Dunn? None that you have named.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re:
c'mon caleb....

You know the story (to quote grande) on schmidt...
He was known for taking game too seriously. He worked every waking moment to improve. He was no fun in the clubhouse, fans didn't like him, he was very serious, dedicated....(he admits extreme committment probably to a fault).......It was no surprise that Schmidt did in fact improve.

Furthermore, though Schmidt struck out alot, hit for low avg. (just like Dunn)... two things that Schmidt did which Dunn doesn't was 1)run the bases and 2)MOST IMPORTANTLY was constantly improving his fielding. By 1976 (his 4th year) he started his string of 10 gold gloves.

I for one, wouldn't be on Dunn as hard and wouldn't have been on Dunn as hard in past years had he found some other ways to contribute. Dunn could have made special effort to be better fit (would have improved his game in many ways) but instead of losing 20-30 pounds he put on 30p pounds, he could have made special effort to improve defense whatever it took - he did neither.

I understand where you're coming from statistically. Yes, there certainly are similarities (the relative BA struggles, Ks, HRs, even walks...) but in this case when you look past the numbers and ask does it pass the "reasonableness test" the answer is a resounding NO. These guys are cut from totally different cloths.

I see absolutely no evidence to suggest that there is any improvement forthcoming with Dunn.

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OTHER WAYS TO CONTRIBUTE
isn't every player limited by his own talents? not every player is a 5 tool guy. You do what you can, and try to do it well. The trick is to build a team that augments one another and comes together to play an all around game.

And how do you know how hard he works? Do you what his daily routine is? The guy plays every day. In this day and age that is something to appreciate.

Could he improve? Yes. Will he improve? Only time will tell. But I just do not undertand how you kick to the curb a guy who hits 40 hr with 100 RBI every year so easily.

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

STOP GIVING THE TIME OF DAY TO THIS DUMBASS
"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Sep 13, 2006 11:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

its an addiction
I need help I admit it!
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

More lies
Leads the majors and sets new all time records in strikeouts every year

As you know, this is a lie.  Dunn does have the single-season record, but that was 3 years ago.  His strikeouts are up this year, but it will only be his 2nd year among the top 30 all-time.  

hits sub-.250 every year

As you know, this doesn't matter; his lifetime OBP is over .380.

has a lifetime BA with RISP which is ~.215

As you know, this also doesn't matter; over time, his (like everyone's) BA with RISP will gravitate towards his overall BA.  But you also know this doesn't matter because he won't get as many good pitches in those situations; mistakes to Dunn cost 2 runs instead of 1.

doesn't run the bases well, doesn't steal bases

As you know, this is also a lie.  In a previous diary entry, I showed you that Dunn scores more runs, both in number and in terms of % of times on base (not via HR), than the "speedster" Ichiro.

Since you know all of these things, I can only guess that you enjoy lying.

by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 9:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

By the way
(I'm going to pull one of your tricks, and reply to my own post)

You also know that the only reason Dunn has the single-season strikeout record is that Jose Hernandez was benched for 10 games so that he wouldn't break it.

by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"reasonableness test"
Just exactly what is that and where can I find it?
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 10:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re:
It's after all the radar, barometers, gauges and buckets have all been checked and they read 0% chance of rain. But then you look out your window and it is raining.
Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"WHAT'S IT GOT TO DO WITH BASEBALL"?
Bonus points available to help Slyde get that pencil topper he wants
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Field of Dreams
woohoo, I'm that much closer...

by Slyde on Sep 14, 2006 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bonus bonus points
"Skip the facts, just gimme the details"
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 12:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Michael, you're really making this too easy....
Since you insist upon focusing on what Adam Dunn can't do instead of what he can, I'm eagerly awaiting your list of what all the other members of the team can't do.

Why do some people insist upon blaming a team's best player for its shortcomings?  And why does this team's fans continue to evaluate players based upon how they look when they play--their "grit"--(Freel, Stynes, etc.) instead of the productivity of their play (E. Davis, Dunn, etc.)?

by terry324 on Sep 14, 2006 1:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re:
when a player is able to sustain at least "par" levels in most all areas of his game THEN yes, you can in fact focus on just the POSITIVES...

however, when certain players are grossly inferior in critical parts of the game to close your eyes to that is myopic and an inaccurate appraisal of the player's overall contribution.

Areas where Dunn is grossly inferior relative to other solid major leaguers and other solid power hitters:
-defense
-strikeout propensity
-batting average
-batting average with RISP
-focus, smarts, situational baseball
(just to name a handful)

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know you won't respond
but let's try this again:

How do you know Dunn doesn't "focus" or have "smarts"?

Also, get it through your thick head:  
STRIKEOUTS DON'T MATTER.  THEY ARE NO BETTER, AND NO WORSE, THAN ANY OTHER TYPE OF OUT.
BATTING AVERAGE DOESN'T MATTER NEARLY AS MUCH AS ON BASE PERCENTAGE.  IT IS THE ABILITY TO AVOID OUTS, NOT GET HITS, THAT IS IMPORTANT.

These aren't off-the-cuff remarks by some looney on an Internet web board; guys who get paid lots of money by Major League baseball teams have spent years going over the data, and proven these things.  Heck, Branch Rickey showed the importance of OBP back in the 40's and 50's while building the great Dodgers teams of the time.

Quit the "yea, but"s and "what if"s already.  You pull these asinine hypothetical situations out of your butt to try to show a hitter like Dunn isn't as valuable as every single person who follows baseball thinks he is, then when actual, you know, logic and stats are used to disprove you, you pull out another one.  Of the most recent 20 diary entries on this site, 3 have been started by you, harping on the same tired crap.  You can't convice anybody (which shouldn't be a surprise - it'd be like trying to convice someone the sky is orange).

"Try Evaluating Adam Dunn from this Perspective":  He's one of the better hitters in the league (and has been the Reds' best for each of his 4 full seasons, and nearly was in 116 games one year), and he's paid less than any other OF who hits like him and is arb eligible or a free agent.

by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

re:
dunn could have made nobody care about anything but his HRs and BBs that he excels at had he:

-lost weight instead of gained weight in his first years in the bigs
-become better with contact hitting
-become better with situational hitting
-become better defensively
-become better using the whole field

hey, what do you know Dunn just struckout again??

Enough with the Homeruns and Strikeouts

by MichaelRed on Sep 14, 2006 2:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll bite
  1.  Uh, he was 21 years old.  Lots of 21 year olds put on weight.  Also, it might surprise you to learn that most 1st year pro athletes put on weight - better nutrition, better weight training.
  2.  Look at his walk rates.  He doesn't get a lot of good pitches to hit.
  3.  Look at his walk rates.  Consider 3 situations:  RISP, RISP with 2 outs, and all other AB.  Guess when Dunn's OBP is highest, and when is it lowest?  I'll give you a hint:  Last year, with RISP/2 outs, his OBP was .512.  Pitchers know a mistake costs them 2 runs, not 1.  Maybe, just maybe, his BA is so low in those situations because he knows he won't get anything good to swing at, so he tries to hit bad pitches.
  4.  No one disputes his defense is bad.  That's the only arguement you make that has even a sliver of truth or logic behind it.
  5.  Ted Williams (ever hear of him?  I'm told he was pretty good in his day) saw the defensive shift every day.  "Using the whole field" is stupid if it takes away your power.  (And no, I'm not comparing Williams to Dunn; I use him as an example of how stupid your remark is)
Finally, no one just cares about his HRs and BBs.  He hits for power (he already has 167 doubles) and gets on base.  That is what people care about.

by sidnancy on Sep 14, 2006 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

uncle uncle uncle
i give i give

trade him, better yet dfa the wothless slug

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Sep 14, 2006 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

hahaha...
You just said Dunn is on the decline physically.  He's 26!  What are you smoking!  He's got at least 5 years of incredible productivity in him. In my mind, Dunn has a legitimate opportunity to get to 650 HRs.  You wouldn't take all those HRs AND an OBP % that's always in the top 5 in the league?  You're on crack son.

Where are my Rec Specs?

by Chris Sabo on Sep 14, 2006 5:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Michael...
I took your challenge.  I evaluated Dunn from your perspective, and came to the same conclusions as I have many times before.  You, not surprisingly, replied to my post by not acknowledging my argument (continuing to cite Dunn's 57% solo HR rate as bad, when clearly it is not), and then answering a different question (poker analogy).

Step up to the plate.  Answer the questions I posed in the last few threads, and evaluate Dunn based on your responses to those.  It's the least you can do.

by BLee2525 on Sep 14, 2006 6:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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