Ryan Freel 3rd on depth chart?

by shawndgoldman on Feb 9, 2006 10:05 PM EST Comment 35 comments

I'm a Cubs fan who is curious about your second base situation. I'm not sure if Reds fans have heard, but the Cubs have been shopping Todd Walker all offseason. Trading Walker away would leave Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston Jr. as our second basemen and likely as potential #2 hitters. Needless to say, this is a situation that concerns many of us.

Well, i was browsing through some depth charts and found Ryan Freel listed as the 3rd second-baseman on the Reds depth chart. This guy seems like a great fit for the Cubs personnel wise. So what gives? Was he "demoted" after the DUI incident? Does someone in the Reds brass really think Womack and Aurilia are better players? Is this all just stemming from the current state of flux in the Reds front office?

If Freel is really just a "super-sub" for the Reds, i think the Cubs should go after him with Walker + a pitcher - we've got a surplus of those.

BTW, i'm hoping to make this year's season opener in Cincy. See you all there...

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No, you cant have him

But we have this guy Tony Womack,
Have your people call our new GM, he should be more than happy to hook you up!

by TheDude on Feb 9, 2006 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

lol!

OK, we'll send you Marquis Grissom, straight up!

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 9, 2006 10:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

typical cubs fan

i think since dan o got fired, we will start to move away from signing aging, mediocre second basemen (two's company, three's a crowd... or something like that). unless "+ pitcher" is zambrano or prior (todd wellmeyer is not going to cut it) and you take tony wo and richie off our hands, i think your freel envy will go unsated. you'll be stuck daydreaming about that catch at wrigley two years ago; see one of the most fearless catches in recent history, April 16, 2004:
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/multimedia/tp_archive.jsp?c_id=cin&ym=200404

by BobbyO on Feb 9, 2006 10:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

for the record...

...walker was out on that play.

by BobbyO on Feb 9, 2006 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wow...

if you think the Cubs wouldn't give up Prior or Zambrano straight up for Tejada or Abreu, but they'd give up either one for Freel, you must be out of your mind. If we sent either one your way, it better be Freel AND Dunn coming back.

I actually had one of our many young arms in mind to trade your way. I guess that means you don't want to develop your team for the future, which of course means you're a "typical Reds fan." Then again, that statement might be based on a heap baseless assumptions...

You might like Freel, but i'm not asking what you think of him. I'm asking if anyone around here has any idea what the Reds think of him, and why he's not listed as a starter anywhere on the depth charts. Of course, if you want to just sling arrows my way instead, that's cool... i'll come back here in late June when you're out of the pennant race and trying to figure out who's giving you the best deal for Dunn.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 9, 2006 10:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i hate to break it to you like this, but...

...i don't think the cubs will be too well in late june either, considering wood and prior will both be sidelined.

also, i understand that sarcasm doesn't come across well over a blog, so i'll make this clear now... i had my proverbial tongue pressed squarely against my cheek when asking for zambrano or prior for freel.

but, that may be besides the point, when i said typical cubs fan i meant exactly what you just proved to me. you severely overestimate the dearth of your teams pitching talent. your top three are great, if they can stay healthy, but after that i can't say i'm that impressed... though i'm sure you are.

my best wishes in advance to wood and prior for their respective tommy john's surgeries this summer (likely performed by doc kremcheck).

by BobbyO on Feb 9, 2006 11:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

just to make one more thing clear...

...i don't wish injuries on wood and prior, i just think they are fragile.

by BobbyO on Feb 9, 2006 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You still don't get it...

I don't claim to know all of you minor league talent, but i can assure you that if the Reds were interested in upgrading their pitching AND the Cubs wanted to deal Walker and bring in a different 2nd baseman, a deal could be worked out that would benefit both teams. Maybe i should rephrase:

Freel for Walker + pitching prospect

If you think Freel's worth more than that, i think you might be the "typical Cubs fan" rooting for the Reds...

And you still haven't answered my question, which is a simple one - why is Freel 3rd on the depth chart?

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 9, 2006 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just a Reds fan stopping by.....

Our minor leagues? 10% potential, 90% crap.
Freel's third because our recently evicted GM was a dumb-ass. And we do want to build for the future, but not by trading our young offense, the only proven component to this team, for still consistent, but certainly nearer-the-pasture pitching. Are you out of your mind? Probably. But you and I are the same,.... Not Yankees Fans. Which means that we hope we're better than we are.
This has been great, stop by again! BuhBye!

"It can't end like this. Tell them I said something."-Poncho Villa

by sukr on Feb 10, 2006 12:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

fair point...

And we do want to build for the future, but not by trading our young offense, the only proven component to this team, for still consistent, but certainly nearer-the-pasture pitching.

I guess i would argue it that's better than letting a piece of your young offense rot on the bench is a far shot worse than trading it away, upgrading at second (assuming Freel isn't your 2B-man), and getting a pitching prospect in return...

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

fowl english...

lets try that again:

I guess i would argue it that trading a piece of your "young offense" away, upgrading at second (assuming Freel isn't your 2B-man), and getting a pitching prospect in return is a far cry better than letting said piece of your young offense rot on the bench.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 12:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and by the way...

i'd take a look at Walker's rate stats before dismissing him in the same crowd as Womack, Aurilia et al.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 9, 2006 11:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Freel...

It isn't really clear what the Reds think of Freel. By far he is the best OBP guy out of all of the middle infielders the Reds have (Freel, Womack, Aurilia, even Lopez), and he steals as many bases as Womack. He is a super-sub and is good insurance in case anyone either gets hurt (Griffey, Kearns) or generally stinks for a long while (EdE, Pena, possibly).

It puzzles most of the people on this board why Womack was signed, since you can't steal first. Boneheaded moves like this are why DanO got fired.

Walker probably would not make much sense for the Reds, because of his salary and his fairly limited defensive range, since we already have a below-average fielder on that side of the field (Dunn), and Rich Aurilia, who does a lot of the things Walker does at a much lower price.

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Feb 10, 2006 12:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

so what you're telling me is...

that Freel is 3rd on the depth chart because your ex-GM is worthless. That makes sense to me... I do see how Walker doesn't make sense for the Reds (but like you said, neither did Womack). I'm curious to see what the Reds do with Freel in the spring, and not just out of a selfish Cubs-fan standpoint. He's a good ballplayer, is underrated, and should be starting somewhere. That last opinion is why i wondered about a Reds-Cubs trade in the 1st place... the kid is too damn good to sit on the bench.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 12:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't think you understand...

...freel will not sit on the bench. even if he is a "super utility man" in the krivsky era, he will start 130+ games if he stays healthy. and you're right freel is underrated, at least outside of reds fandom, but that doesn't mean that the krivsky would settle for walker (even if he did "make sense") and a pitching prospect (T.N.S.T.A.A.P.P), at least i hope, i have high expectations for the guy.

by BobbyO on Feb 10, 2006 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, that pretty much sums it up.

Which is why most people on this board sang "ding dong the witch is dead" when DanO got fired.

Freel is a very good ballplayer, and I figure that he will get about 400-450 at-bats this year, if the Reds know what is good for them and don't make a commitment to start Womack anywhere. We can only hope things change with Krivsky in charge now.

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Feb 10, 2006 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"he will get about 400-450 at-bats"

I certainly hope so. Regardless if that will help you win some games against the Cubs (and keep Freel away from our greedy little fingers), i hope he does get to play for you guys. I just hate seeing all that potential go to waste. Being a Cubs fan, that's a worry i can sympathize with, given Dusty Baker's aversion to playing young talent.

The way he gets jerked around in the field is actually very similar to the way Baker, Hendry, and the Cubs brass jerked Corey Patterson around the lineup. The difference is Freel seems to have the sort of committement to work through those changes whereas Patterson did not. Of course, Freel also knows not to swing at fastballs a foot above your head, which also helps a little...

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

"freel will not sit on the bench"

That's exactly my point! How do you know that? I'm not doubting that is the case, but to be certain of that one has to have an explanation for why Freel isn't listed as the starter on the depth chart. I think Freel should be the starter. However, i also think Todd Walker should start for the Cubs. That doesn't mean either one is going to happen. To be honest, i was quite shocked when i looked at the Reds depth chart and saw Freel listed as the 3rd-string 2nd-baseman. I almost didn't put that "potential trade" into my post because i was afraid it would oscure the main point of the diary. Specifically:

Why is Freel 3rd on the depth chart?

You come close to an explanation above, but don't quite get there... Lets try this, BobbyO. Re-read my post without the line about the Walker trade, and then see if you can contribute something to the discussion on why Freel is not listed as a starter. Do you think the plan is to make him a "super-utility guy"? Do you think some knucklehead working for mlb.com has no idea who Ryan Freel is and just based the depth chart based on a random number generator? Why do you, BobbyO, think that Freel isn't a starter according to your team's website?

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 8:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

All this should change with the new GM

Since Krivsky only has had the job for two days, my guess is that he hasn't gotten around to updating the mlb website. This is no small thing. I expect some time this weekend he'll sit down and put in some hard work, posting personal photos, diary entries, and yes rehauling the depth chart so Ryan Freel is no longer the third string second baseman.

After all, the depth chart on the official website is top priority for most professional baseball clubs. Attention to these kinds of details are what separate cellar-dwellers like the Reds from class-act organizations like the A's and Dodgers ... er ... make that Cardinals.

As for the answer to your question, why is Freel listed as the third-string second baseman? Because our previous GM believed he was a superutility man, and shipped him all over the diamond, never giving him a chance. Freel's been consistently snubbed in this way his whole career, and for some of us, he has become the living embodiment of suffering peoples throughout history. "How many years must a man play well before you can call him a starting second baseman?" a famous bard once asked, and in Freel's case, the question applies.

Here's hoping that Krivsky moves Freel to the top of the second baseman depth chart as soon as he gets around to updating the website.

Does that answer your question?

by jprose on Feb 10, 2006 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the answer...

and don't get me wrong, i don't think this should have been taken care of by Krivsky yet. I started wondering this question a while back, and never posted it here until yesterday. I suspected the cause of Freel's "bench status" was the former GM, but i thought i'd go right to the best source available to me - this blog.

So, thanks for your answer!

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No problem ...

I mean, I was being glib, but I'm glad it satisfied you.

What do you think about these recent allegations that Harry Caray was an prick?

by jprose on Feb 10, 2006 3:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

he probably was...

He was had a "big shot" reputation when out on the town, and i think he enjoyed having that rep, so it wouldn't surprise me if he bullied a lot. I never met the guy, and to be honest it doesn't personally offend me when people rip on him. It won't keep the smile off my face when recalling him trying to announce showdowns involving Hector Villanueva or Fernando Valenzuela, butchering their names, and then trying them backwards as if saying them forwards wasn't tough enough in the 1st place. Whether he was a jerk or a saint, the guy made the game more enjoyable. So i guess it doesn't really affect me much, but i wouldn't doubt the stories.

I should say that his grandson, although cornier than the state West of the Buckeye State, seemed to be a stand up guy. Now if the same stories were to come out about him, then i'd be shocked.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Just wondering ...

He seemed to always have that senile Grandpa thing going on. I was actually pretty surprised to read that he was a jerk while he was with the Cubs. I always figured he was probably very happy just to be around.

I suppose you never know ... in the end though, you're right, his personal life is pretty irrelevant.

As a non-Cubs fan, I hated listening to him. I suppose that that's par for the course. I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy hearing Joe Nuxhall on cable television every time you wanted to watch a game.

Come to think of it, neither would I.

by jprose on Feb 10, 2006 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

probably not...

...i think this cubs fan is confused about what question he is actually asking... typical.

by BobbyO on Feb 10, 2006 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

actually, it did...

Funny, the only person that i can't seem to explain the question to properly is you... Everyone else that's posted here has offered up an explanation (the same one every time) except you. (Technically speaking, neither did The Dude, but his comment was intended for humor, not debate.)

And if categorizing me as a "typical Cubs fan" means you are associating me with this sort of sentiment, this sort of analysis, or this sort of skepticism of corporate ownership, then i thank you for your compliment.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

you are an angry Reds fan aren't ya big guy??

Booyakasha...waguan!

by azweber9 on Mar 1, 2006 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

A word from the management

Be nice to the visitors guys, unless they act like pricks, which shawn hasn't done as far as I can see. Teasing is fine, but there's a line. Try not to cross it.

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars. --Oscar Wilde

by JD Arney on Feb 10, 2006 3:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

By the way...

your community has been for the most part very welcoming. As a matter of fact if i were to make call someone a "typical Reds fan" based on this diary i would be giving a compliment... You know, its probably more that the people posting here care a lot about their team and are well versed in baseball. It just might be that baseball bloggers have more in common with each other than they do with the fans of their respective teams.

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 10, 2006 11:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Freel

Shawn, you know how it is. You have one guy that the manager wants to play everywhere, and the poor guy can't shake the image. But if you want to know what our "second base situation" is . . . let's just say we're covered.

by Brian B on Feb 10, 2006 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

makes sense to me...

and if i were GM of the Reds, i wouldn't be shopping Freel. I'd be starting him. What i was confused by was his placement on the depth charts. I didn't know O'Brien was THAT inept.

I wish i never put that one line in about Walker, things would have been so much easier...

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 11, 2006 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Welcome

I would normally welcome anything that fires up this much response, but I decided we need to take this fight to your turf.

"It can't end like this. Tell them I said something."-Poncho Villa

by sukr on Feb 11, 2006 12:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

closure for typical fans of all sorts

here is an answer to my friend, the "typical cubs fan", compliments of beat writer John Fay, http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060212/SPT04/602120400/-1/CINCI

i agree that this should be, and probably will be, our starting lineup going into april. notice how he disposes of ryan freel first; must be reading JD's blog.

by BobbyO on Feb 12, 2006 1:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

and this is what you should fear...

"INF Tony Womack: Could be in the lineup Opening Day if he beats out Freel."

If i were a Reds fan i would be fearing that sort of statement. Then again, maybe i've just grown paranoid from watching Dusty bench kids for the past few years...

Just a Cubs fan stopping by...

by shawndgoldman on Feb 12, 2006 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs