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Around SBN: NFL Roundtable: Which Draft Pick Is Most Likely To Bust?

today's developments--questions for more knowledgeable lurkers

Two things of note today:

Marcus Giles is set to sign with the Pads.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9878634
That's disappointing to me. Not that I expected the Reds to land him--and where would he play?--but I had hopes.

Also, Jeremy Bonderman signed a 4-year, $38 million extension with the Tigers.
http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9878647
My question is, what does this mean to Aaron Harang? Bonderman and Harang seem to be in approximately the same category, at least to me. If the Reds could lock up Harang to a similar contract, I'd think that would be a good deal for both sides.

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You beat me to it
I was going to post a diary entry about Bonderman.  

This is not good, budget-wise.  While they are similar, and at the same point arb-wise, Harang can point to being a better pitcher.  Over the past 2 seasons:

  • His k/bb is 3.54 vs. 2.87 for Bonderman
  • His WHIP is 1.27 vs. 1.32, even though he plays in a more hitter-friendly park.  Surprisingly, the league WHIP is the same for the 2 leagues over the past 2 years (1.39).
  • His ERA+ (if I figured it right) is 122 vs. 102.
  • He's pitches deeper into games, even though he pitches in a league without a DH (he's more likely to be hit for) - 6.66 IP/start vs. 6.4.
Bonderman is younger.  Harang has a much better k/bb (slightly lower k/9 - 7.65 vs. 7.75); better WHIP; much better ERA+; and more innings and innings/start.  Harang could, in fact, argue that Bonderman won this contract based on performance similar to Harang's '04-05 seasons, and that Harang's '06 was much better.

I've been arguing for 2 months that they should tie Harang up as soon as possible to a multi-year contract.  They're really going to regret it now.

by sidnancy on Dec 18, 2006 8:14 PM EST reply actions  

Neutralized stats for the two
Harang:
Year Ag   G   W   L   WL%     IP    H    R   ER  HR   BB  SO  HBP   ERA   WHIP  ActG
+-------+----+---+---+-----+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+-----+------+----+
 2002 24   16   4   4  .500   80.3   74   42   38   7   43   65   3  4.26  1.456   16
 2003 25   16   3   5  .375   76.3   89   50   45  11   19   42   1  5.31  1.415   16
 2004 26   28   7  10  .412  158.3  183  103   93  27   55  122   5  5.29  1.503   28
 2005 27   32  13  10  .565  210.3  215   98   88  22   51  161   8  3.77  1.265   32
 2006 28   36  16  10  .615  239.0  231   99   89  27   53  220   8  3.35  1.188   36
+-------+----+---+---+-----+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+-----+------+----+
 Totals   128  43  39  .524  764.3  792  392  353  94  221  612  25  4.16  1.325  128

Bonderman:
Year Ag   G   W   L   WL%     IP    H    R   ER  HR   BB  SO  HBP   ERA   WHIP  ActG
+-------+----+---+---+-----+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+-----+------+----+
 2003 20   33   6  12  .333  162.0  193  111  100  23   58  108   4  5.56  1.549   33
 2004 21   33   9  11  .450  186.0  164  106   95  23   71  169  10  4.60  1.263   33
 2005 22   29  10  11  .476  189.3  198  106   95  21   57  145   4  4.52  1.347   29
 2006 23   34  13  11  .542  217.0  207  101   91  17   62  204   3  3.77  1.240   34
+-------+----+---+---+-----+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+-----+------+----+
 Totals   129  38  45  .458  754.3  762  424  381  84  248  627  21  4.55  1.339  129

Like sidnancy said, Bonderman's 2006 is right on Harang's 2005 season, except with more strikeouts and a couple more walks.

I think the big thing that the Reds have going for them is that Harang is 5 years older than Bonderman.  They can argue that Harang has reached his peak (or plateau if that makes you feel better), while Bonderman could argue that he is still a couple of years away from his.  Think of it this way, Bonderman is one year behind Harang in quality, but 4 years ahead in the age where he put up that performance.  I don't know if he's ever shown signs of injury, but if not, then I would say he projects to be a better pitcher than Harang in 4 seasons.  I think the Reds could argue that is the reason why Harang doesn't deserve any more money than Bonderman.

by Slyde on Dec 18, 2006 8:51 PM EST reply actions  

now that's what I'm talking about
This kinda stuff is the reason I stalk this site.

Thanks, Slyde.

So can Wayne get it done? That's the question.

by greg456 on Dec 18, 2006 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Harang = Horse
Gotta sign the bellcow.  

Harang and Arroyo and Bailey = Hope for '08.

But Milton and Lohse will need to be replaced by then, which is a daunting task.  

Draft arms, Kriv, draft arms.

Courtney for President, 2008

by ohiobobcat on Dec 18, 2006 10:27 PM EST reply actions  

arroyo
How long is he locked up? Through '08?

by greg456 on Dec 18, 2006 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

BA signed through '08
At a very reasonable price, too.  Just under $4mm each year.  Which is why when you give your team a hometown discount, you ask for a no-trade clause.  Otherwise, you become that much more attractive as trade bait.  

by ken on Dec 19, 2006 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree absolutely...
price for pitching this year is waaaaay too high to just go out and sign or trade for someone.

by crolfer on Dec 18, 2006 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Or just keep
on drafting center fielders. Whatever floats your canoe.
Reds fandom: A study in futility and masochism.

by Ash on Dec 19, 2006 12:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Forgot the catchers...
Need more catchers, since you need three at every level.
Don't mind me...just thinking positive and pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Dec 19, 2006 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

and utility infielders
we really need more of them.  i can't believe wayne got rid of so many second basemen last year.  what a shortage we have now.
winter is boooooooring

by Daedalus on Dec 19, 2006 10:08 AM EST up reply actions  

don't forget...
39 year old relivers. That should be the minimum age for our bullpen.

by KAredsfan on Dec 19, 2006 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Minor developments
Pittsburgh signed two foreign pitchers for modest amounts - a 25 year-old Cuban defector (3 years, almost $2mm) and an old Japanese free agent (minor league deal).  I have no idea if either of them will work out, but I do commend Pittsburgh for its creativity in trying to take advantage of undervalued foreign players.  The Dodgers got a real bargain last year in signing Saito (78 IP, 107 K, 23 BB, 2.07 ERA, 24 saves) from Japan for close to the minimum.  I'd like to see the Reds engage in some foreign market arbitrage, but I'm not holding my breath.  

by ken on Dec 19, 2006 11:15 AM EST reply actions  

Japanese relievers
I thought Boston's signing of reliever Hideki Okajima (their other Japanese pitcher) was one of the best of the offseason, but I stopped short of advocating the Reds go that route. I didn't think a player would want to move to the middle of our huge country with little Asian community. But if Pittsburgh is doing it, everybody into the pool.

by Red Menace on Dec 19, 2006 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW
I don't think the size of the Japanese community scares off most Japanese players.  It's just one example, but So Taguchi sought out the Cardinals when he decided to play in the States because he asked around and liked what he heard about the organization and the city.  There's also a small but significant Japanese expat community in Cincinnati that could ease the transition.

by ken on Dec 19, 2006 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

This one just has to get done
There's no way around paying Harang what he's worth.  It seems like there's enough reference points to give the guy the money he deserves and get it over with.

by Gage on Dec 19, 2006 12:55 PM EST reply actions  

Marquis, Cubs finalize $21 million, 3-year deal
Apparently it is not the 3 year, $28 million that was reported last week.  

$21 million for three years makes a little more sense.

by Brian B on Dec 19, 2006 8:57 PM EST reply actions  

No it still doesn't make sensee
Giving a back-of-the-rotation scrub like Marquis $7 million a year is insane. Which most of Major League Baseball is these days....insane.

by cesarhernandez on Dec 19, 2006 10:35 PM EST reply actions  

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