Arroyo wants out?

by kcox17 on Oct 11, 2006 11:26 AM EDT Comment 31 comments

Bronson Arroyo may be in Cincinnati, but his heart is still in Boston.

In fact, he may already be planning his return.

"I still miss playing in that uniform, especially when I turn on the TV and they are 10 games out of first place and there is still a crowd that is maybe more enthusiastic than any crowd in the game," Arroyo told the Lawrence (Mass.) Eagle-Tribune in a story published yesterday.

"You never know what's going to happen in the next couple years."

One thing that will happen is Arroyo hitting the free-agent market after 2008, when the three-year contract he signed with the Red Sox last winter expires. He has yet to sell his home in Boston, and he told the newspaper he'll hold onto it for at least two more years . . . or until he sees what happens in free agency.

Arroyo, 29, went 14-11 with a 3.29 E.R.A. for the Reds and made the National League All-Star team. He said Sox general manager Theo Epstein, who traded him to Cincinnati for outfielder Wily Mo Pena in spring training, called to congratulate him on his All-Star selection.

"He was joking around about how he couldn't go anywhere in the city without somebody yelling at him about trading me," Arroyo said.

Like many Sox fans, Arroyo didn't understand why Boston would pitching for outfield help.

"[Why] would you trade away a young, 200-inning arm?" he said. "Even if Wily Mo hits 40 home runs, I think with what's going on in baseball as far as getting rid of steroids and stuff, it's becoming harder for people to pitch 200 innings and stay healthy year after year. I can see pitchers becoming more of a commodity than they were five or six years ago."

And Arroyo thinks he became more of a commodity after the season he had.

"I was disappointed with the move, but it is probably going to help me out in the long run, because I'm coming over to [Cincinnati] with a little more responsibility, showing I didn't need the Boston Red Sox lineup to stay out there and win ballgames." he said. "In the end, as a free agent, I have become worth more than if I stayed in Boston and pitched out of the pen . . .

"Over time, you earn your respect. I've always been a guy who has been borderline, 'Is he a starter or a bullpen guy?' But now I think I've shown I can be a No. 3 on any team in baseball.

"So now I've gotten over that hump. Now I have to prove that I can be a guy who can do it 2, 3, 5 or 10 years in a row."

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20061011_11rsoxjo.31c8562.html

what do you guys think? i get the vibe he wants to be back in Boston and he really is just here because his contract says he has to be. And if he doesnt want to be here do we keep him here only to have him leave for nothing in return?

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First!

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Oct 11, 2006 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Again...

We are confronted with the horrors of being a small market club. I get so frustrated with the current state of baseball, where everyone only wants to play for the Yankees or the Red Sox.

I really wish baseball would go away for a season or two, and force a financial system on the players like they have in the NFL...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Oct 11, 2006 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

um...

check what teams are in the playoffs. things are starting to level somewhat. the Yankees will not go away until Steinbrenner keels over (which, judging from the rumors, might not be too many seasons away.) The Wild Card was the best thing that Selig ever did (the only good thing?) because it allows smaller market teams to get to the playoffs.

ESPN is the one who is responsible for the Yankees/ Red Sox mentality. Fox Saturday Baseball mimics their programming, too. There were several teams that were not shown on FSB this year, while the Yankees were shown 9 times, and the Red Sox, Mets, and Dodgers were shown 8. MLB needs to negotiate better with Fox and ESPN to ensure there is more diversity in television coverage. Even the Deadbirds, whom I hate, aren't getting as much national attention because of this Y/R crap, and Albert Pujols is probably the most marketable player in the game.

I think Minnesota and Oakland have shown that market size really isn't the factor everyone portends them to be. Conversely, the Dodgers, even though they squeaked into the playoffs, and the Cubs show that as well.

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Oct 11, 2006 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Market Size is every bit the factor...

Otherwise, the Yankees wouldn't be in the playoffs every year. I look at the teams in the playoffs, and the Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, Tigers, and Cardinals all have big payrolls and/or are in a large market. Smaller teams just can't afford to compete for free agents, making their margin of error rediculously small.

For instance, the Reds field a pretty good team whent they are healthy, but their payroll doesn't allow them the luxury of a quality bench. When Griffey gets hurt, they really miss him. By contrast, the Yankees gluttony allows them to just plug in another (at least near) all star caliber player when one of theirs gets injured. Just to show the difference not having a salary cap makes. The Reds two highest paid and best offensive players (Griffey and Dunn) would not even start in the Yankee's outfield.

Another problem with major league baseball, is that foreign players don't have to go through the draft. This elminates the small market teams from even being able to get the top talent out of Japan and Cuba.

Teams like the Reds have no choice but to draft from the U.S. talent pool, and try to cultivate that talent into a competitive Major League squad. A salary cap would allow us to sign top level free agents, and even make a trade for a star from time to time...instead of 15 trades for the Ryan Franklin's of the world.

There is a reason the NFL is not America's Past Time. Every team can go from terrible to Super Bowl contender in just the span of a year or two. Until baseball adopts an economic system like that of the NFL, there is no hope for teams like Cincinnati and Pittsburgh to win the World Series. I'd like for everyone to be on an equal playing field, and if it takes a year or two of no baseball for it to happen...so be it...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Oct 11, 2006 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Detroit lost 119 games

three years ago and hasn't made the post season since 1984.

the red sox didn't come near the playoffs despite their massive payroll, and toronto finished ahead of them. the reds missed the playoffs by four games and won the season series against both st. louis and houston. oakland and minnesota are both small market teams and have been to the playoffs for the past several years. the yankees haven't won the world series since 2000. dallas is one of the largest cities in the country and the rangers rarely make the playoffs, and they've never won the world series. houston, another one of the largest cities in the country, is competitive and went to the series for the first time last year, but they aren't dominating anyone. the cubs have a huge payroll and suck year in and year out.

why are nearly all the "small markets" in the midwest? there is a bigger issue here than just market size. does the midwest have a lackadaisical attitude towards good management practices?

perhaps MLB should rethink its marketing strategy for the midwest, the real birthplace of baseball.

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Oct 11, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baseball...

Doesn't have a marketing strategy for the midwest...Everything focuses on the East Coast.

Just because you can spend big money doesn't mean you spend it wisely...

But in your examples...Houston has a payroll I think over 90 Million. Also, Toronto was able to go out an spend big money on free agents last season, and that is why they improved. Detroit is one of the largest markets in the nation.

Oakland and Minnesota are extremely well ran franchises and are the exception not the rule.

The Yankees don't win the world series because they have too much talent. The players all become complacent, and wait for the other stars to come through.

The Cubs suck because they aren't interested in winning. Wrigley Field sells out every game whether they are in first or last place.

And the sad fact is the Reds were extremely lucky to have stayed in the race this year. They are lucky that they got full seasons out of Harang and Arroyo. If either one of them had of gotten injured, we would have had no where to turn. It's not like we can make Randy Johnson our fourth starter...Baseball is screwed up...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Oct 11, 2006 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if we think outside the diamond

look at Jinaz's post on payroll efficiency.

and exactly my point about the midwest strategy - there isn't one. that's selig for you, though. he's completely incompetent as a "CEO" so to speak. everyone knows MLB doesn't know how to run itself as a business. one would think that MLB would go for as many dollar signs as possible and recognize that a lot of people are sick of yankeesredsox and baseball would be better off with more competitition, both financially and popularity-wise. but MLB is oblivious. it's up to the clubs to make up for MLB's inadequacies, which is what Oakland and Minnesota have done by thinking outside the diamond, which is why i say that market size doesn't matter - it's the way clubs are managed. and if individual clubs like the reds managed their teams better, they'd pull in more revenue to pay for that one starter that will get them to the playoffs. that's why oakland and minnesota are winning - they have better managed ballclubs from the top down. or from bottom to the top.

and frankly, reds marketing sux. you go to cincinnati and hardly notice that the oldest professional baseball team plays in the city. then again, when you have crooks like carl linder in charge for so many years, what do you expect? so with some good management, any team, reds included, has a shot. they don't need to win the division - look at how many wild card teams have won the WS (or gone to it) since its inception.

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Oct 11, 2006 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think...

We are saying pretty much the same thing...

Except you want the teams to be more responsible for themselves and be better run. Which of course I understand. But I don't know if that is practical.

I would rather baseball "bail out" the small market clubs with a deal similar to the NFL's...

I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long.

by chandrathan on Oct 11, 2006 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's still got 2 years on his contract

If he pitches like he did last year, I don't care if he wants to be playing for the New York Philharmonic. If he still doesn't want to stay in the middle of 2008, then you look at trading him. Otherwise, keep him and milk the advantage of that contract that he signed to play in Boston.

by Slyde on Oct 11, 2006 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

worry about it in 08 then

"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes." - Crash Davis

by Caleb on Oct 11, 2006 11:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yes, and no

Other players will see how the organization treats someone who outperforms their contract, if Arroyo continues on the path he started in 2006. In that case the Reds would do well to renegotiate his contract and attempt to lock him up through '09 or '10. If he balks there wont be a feeling that the Reds wont take care of their own, and he can be dealt for prospects midseason '08.

The first thing I thought this morning when I learned BA was going to tour Japan this winter with MLB was "boy, he's gonna meet a ton of girls who will dig his singer/athlete mojo". If it goes well for him, he might pull a Danny Serafini on Cincy....

Now, if I'm a Hall of Famer for you, that's all right with me. Just keep loving old Buck. Don't weep for Buck. No, man, be happy, be thankful. *Buck O'Neill*

by ohiobobcat on Oct 11, 2006 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

renegotiating contracts

I think this is more of an NFL thing. Can you think of examples of teams doing this?

by Red Menace on Oct 11, 2006 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't think of specific examples

but I thought that once or twice a player has tacked on a year or two onto their contract and maybe added some money to the last year of the original deal. I'm trying to think of an example, but I can't, so I may have just made it up. Either way, it defintely is more of an NFL thing where it happens much more frequently, that's for sure.

by Slyde on Oct 11, 2006 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're probably right, RM.

The renegotiation thing in the NFL seems to be a product of the lack of guaranteed contracts.

Don't mind me...just pitching to contact, that's all...

by Paul Householder on Oct 11, 2006 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's amazing to me in all of this

is that Bronson wants to go back to Boston. He had a handshake agreement with the Red Sox that they would not trade him last off-season, and they did. Seems like he should be pissed at them, don't you think?

As for the re-negotiating of the contract, even if it doesn't happen in baseball, I don't think it's a bad idea. From the Reds perspective, if they want to keep him around, giving him $7 million in 2008, $8.5 million in 2009, and $10 million in 2010 is better than $4 million in 2008, $9 million in 2009, and $11 million in 2010 since the two future years will have a little more payroll wiggle room. From Bronson's perspective, he'll get a little more money, plus he'll have the money upfront. Seems like decent proposition on both sides. Plus, offering it to him may generate some goodwill with Arroyo. I wouldn't do any of it until next off-season though.

by Slyde on Oct 11, 2006 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Boston

It sounds like BA is more in love with the city of Boston than the organization. I'd be pissed, too, about the handshake agreement (as much at the team as my agent). But the crowds there are better than Cincinnati, and he thrives on the city's obsession with the Sox. Maybe he just doesn't like being in the Midwest.

I'd offer him somehting along the lines of what Slyde suggested, but it'll be hard to compete with the Sox if he really wants to go back to Boston. In the meantime, we can enjoy another two (or 1 1/2) solid, very reasonably priced years from him.

by ken on Oct 11, 2006 1:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He said as much in March

that he wanted to stay in Boston. This is no surprise. It's unfortunate because we have a great city and good fans, but the man has always said he'd "do his time" here and then test the market. It'd be nice if he could make this his home, but there's no interest, yet. If we win a pennant or two in the next couple years, then maybe his attitude will change, but I'm not sure it will.

I gotta take a wicked "yes"! - Peter Griffin

by NYRed on Oct 11, 2006 1:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cincinnati

is no longer a great city or even a great baseball town. The city itself has been ran into the ground by dull -dumb- backward- conservative leadership(of both parties). Cincinnati is not in the same category, league, or anything else with the city of Boston. I love the city of Cincinnati; but that's just the cold hard truth. Like many cities suburbanization and lack of urban planning has killed the city core and ripped the heart out of Cincinnati.

This city was one of the great old midwestern river towns that slowly went in the shitter over the last 20 or so years and then the "events" of 2001 pretty much turned this town into a laughing stock.

The attendance at Reds games this year shows this is no longer even a baseball town. People flock out of the suburbs to do the opening day thing; because it's just what you do; but there is no passion for baseball the way there is in New York, Boston, or Chicago. There is no comparison between the atmosphere at an average game in Fenway and GABP. Sorry to turn a baseball blog into a rant; but it's really not hard to understand why someone like Bronson Arroyo would rather play and live in Boston.

by abovethefray on Oct 11, 2006 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow.

You're not dumb enough to live in Cinci, are you?

by sukr on Oct 11, 2006 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Arroyo

I'm so sick of hearing Bronson talk about how much he loves Boston, it's really an insult to Cincinnati and their fans. Hopefully Castellini will step up and do some things right in the offseason and a couple of winning years will make Arroyo feel better.

BTW, speaking of Boston, I know how people here hate on Krivsky for "the trade" can you imagine being a Red Sox fan and they trade Arroyo for Wily Mo then they trade Josh Bard and Cla Meredith for Doug Mirabelli. Those trades make the Kearns deal look real good.

by JCH888 on Oct 11, 2006 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

what fans?

oh, you mean the 20K or so who showed up to games in the middle of a pennant race?

if y'all have ever been to boston, you know how crazy they are about baseball. it's difficult not to love the city as a baseball fan. who wouldn't want to play in front of full stadiums every night? the energy is electric. and boston has always been this way - it's not a trend thing.

bronson got screwed - it's not his fault that he was traded. why are people angry because he loves boston? ballplayers are people with likes and dislikes. frankly, cincinnati is a pretty dull town, and bronson is the big, exciting city type. how can people expect him to like a small town that seems to be stuck in the 1950s?

we should be happy to have him for a few years. too bad we have to keep using the same excuses for why people don't go to games, because fuller stadiums might change his mind.

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Oct 11, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cincy Fans

I agree that Cincinnati "fans" suck, most of them I see constantly bitch about how the Reds suck, b/c they can't get over the fact there will never be another big red machine. I have a double standard though, it's ok for true Reds fans to bitch about how the Cincinnati "fans" blow, it's just not ok for anyone else, including Arroyo.

I think we'd have a much better situation here though, if everyone wasn't screwed around by the Linder/Allen regime of the last 10 years. It's hard to convince people the Reds are really serious this time, doesn't make any sense to me b/c they saw huge midseason aquisitions like Kyle Lohse and Ryan Franklin...oh, I guess those weren't good examples. Well, at least we're trying to lure Lou Pinella here...dammit, nevermind.

by JCH888 on Oct 11, 2006 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lived in Boston

for 3 years and lived in NYC for one. There's no competition. NYC fans ARE electrifying, hate them or not. Boston fans are morons and turn on you (and each other) in a second. The city is overrated so if BA wants a big city, there's only one. As for Cincy, it is quiet, but it'd be nice just once for a star to be grateful that he is paid large amounts of money for the God given talent he's lucky to have. It could be worse - - - he could be playing in Kansas City.

I gotta take a wicked "yes"! - Peter Griffin

by NYRed on Oct 11, 2006 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know anything about Boston fans

except for what the media have fed me via movies such as "Fever Pitch" (based on Hornsby's book about an Arsenal fan, btw), and I agree, a winner would probably have him singing a different tune. Still, we could always do what the Dodgers did to punish Odalis Perez - trade him. To Kansas City.

More, more, more ....... how do you like it?

by Gapper on Oct 11, 2006 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally agree

About the difference between NY and Boston fans . . NY fans are annoying, arrogant, but knowledgeable; Boston fans are mostly the first two. Similar to college football fans that care more about beating the big rival (NY) than the season as a whole.

by ken on Oct 11, 2006 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boston Fans

disappear as soon as they're out of it. watch.

by bobestes on Oct 11, 2006 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Largely successful hitting coach - gone.

Manager with a sub-.500 record who apparently gets into it with his Aurilia-types, is not truthful with relievers about their role when they ask, and is fearful of moving his superstar, future HOFer out of CF and the 3 hole -- still here.

Perhaps this is Arroyo being as diplomatic as possible - talk about missing the old team instead of openly dissing the situation surrounding the current team - in trying to blow off some steam.

I agree with JCH and NYRed (and whomever else has said this previously)... if Castellini steps up and makes this team better, we're gonna hear Arroyo stop talking about missing Boston so much.

"No, no, no. It's "step, pivot, step, pause." Are you TRYING to piss off the volcano god?" - Peter Griffin

by Ash on Oct 11, 2006 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

excellent hypothesis

"talk about missing the old team instead of openly dissing the situation surrounding the current team"

makes sense to me

FIRE NARRON!!!!!

!!!!
!

"The players make the manager, it's never the other way." ~ Sparky Anderson

by Daedalus on Oct 11, 2006 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pro and con

On the one hand I sympathize with Bronson very much. As has been said, he's a person who -- like anyone else -- is allowed to have an opinion and his own preferences. He signed a long-term, below-market contract for the team that he preferred to play for. And he was promptly traded. I agree with Slyde, Bronson should be pissed.

But on the other hand, I never like it when a baseball player insinuates that he would rather be somewhere else. There is a responsibility to the fans, even if he's completely justified in wanting to leave. It just doesn't look good. Keep that talk behind closed doors. If any of us publically declared our desire to work somewhere else, we'd probably be out of a job pretty quickly. But the same is not true of athletes.
And I know athletes don't have the same flexibility in where they work as we do, but they make a hell of a lot more money than we do. So I think it kind of balances out.

Bottom line: I have no problem with an athlete preferring to work in a chosen city. But have a little grace, and some respect for those who pay your exorbitant salary.

by ctnyc on Oct 11, 2006 9:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dude,

What are you, like running for office or something?

I gotta take a wicked "yes"! - Peter Griffin

by NYRed on Oct 11, 2006 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bronson

A. Is anybody surprised by Bronson's comments?

B. What are the odds he'll have as good a year next year or the one following as he did this? He is as likely in two years to be happy to be negotiating with the Reds as he is to be taking offers from the Red Sox, Yankees, etc.

Meanwhile let's fix what's really bad: the offense, the bullpen, the managing, the general managing, the drafting (except for the two years of O'Brien, when we had a real general manager)

by HokieRed on Oct 11, 2006 10:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs