Ozzie Guillen hearts Dave Concepcion

9 time all-star, including 8 consecutive seasons.

5 time gold glove, until ozzie came onto the scene

all star mvp, back when it meant something

was oldest player in MLB, '87 and '88

polularized the "bounce off the astroturf
 throw from deep in the hole.

i know the entire big red machine cannot be enshrined in the hof, but davey should receive more serious consideration. so should alan trammell, for that case.  i think the offensive shortstops of today are going to distort concepcion's performance standard as measured against his peers.

i am on the fence with davey as a hof'er.  ozzie guillen, on the other hand, is not within eyesight of said fence.

Davey stats just don't shout "Hall of Famer," so his election is unlikely, unless his old double-play partner Joe Morgan champions his election to the Veteran's committee.  Since the VC hasn't elected anyone following its reorganization, that seems far-fetched.

I don't have strong feelings about Davey going in or not.  I liked him very much as a player; his stats seem truly borderline.  Does seem to me that whatever happens to Davey ought also to happen to Trammell.  And it will be interesting to see how much Larkin is compared to Davey when Lark comes up for selection--which I think he'll get.  Having seen both their whole careers, I think Larkin was a little better, maybe just enough.  Here's a question, though?  How much should position really count?  Should the standard for each player be just how he compares to others who have played the same position?  Or should he have to be at least as good, let's say, as some of the best players not in the hall who played other positions.  Here's a comparison for Reds fans.  Another guy whose whole career I saw, better in every statistical category than Concepcion (except Dave had 16 more lifetime steals)and a terrific fielder in the other most crucial position on the field, center.  I'm talking about Vada Pinson.  2757 hits, lifetime .286 (.327, .442, .769), 256 hrs., 1169 RBI, .305 steals, .343 in 1961 (batting title I believe).  One of the problems for me with a guy like David, whom I thought was a terrific player, is that he just wasn't as good as Pinson.

Not sure if any of you who posted earlier were around in the 70's and early 80's to actually watch Davey play, but here goes.  He was the best shortstop for his era, period.  Just before Ozzie and Cal and their unbelievable fielding and hitting talents were unleashed at the position, and before the small-ballpark HR hitting SS's, there was Davey, Bowa, Belanger, Trammell, and a few others.  Davey was the best.  Yes Trammell, had his MVP season and he probably had better #'s, but anyone who watched the game back then, knew Davey was just the better ball player for their careers.  

Had he played in New York or played on a team without five other hall of famers you can bet he'd be in the hall.  I know his numbers don't stack up to today's SS's and he never won a league MVP, but you had to see him day in and day out, which I had the pleasure for several years.  

No one went in the hole like Davey, no shortstop was stealing bases like Davey for many many years, and as for hitting, he had a lot of clutch hits and had gap power in an era when Foster almost led the league one year with 29 homers.  In today's game, with weight training and year round diet and exercise, Davey would be worth 25 homers and 90 RBI a year along with superlative fielding and base running.  He would be Nomar without the injuries.  

Again, you had to see him for about a 10 year stretch.  Isn't one of the criteria, away from numbers, that the ballplayer should have been the best in his era at his position?  If so, Davey's in, end of argument.  

Marty has tried his best to lobby for him to get in.  I bet he does by the Veterans Committee sooner rather than later.  By the way, when you are watching Vizquel, you're watching Davey, only Davey was taller and actually smoother and had a stronger arm.    

Can you tell he was my favorite Red.  He wore the "C' on his chest and passed the baton to Larkin.....

Few final thoughts. Pinson a little before my time.  Based on his numbers, he should probably be in. Although, was he one of the best outfielders in his era? Honestly, I think Doggie sort of got in because of Johnny and his popularity and ability to lobby to the writers.  I just don't think Davey was as popular as a guy like Tony.    

 "I believe that Concepcion should be chosen before me."

Ozzie, you're in no danger of being named to the hall of fame any time soon...

Great post, Ken.  I'd hoped some other people would take this up, but since they haven't, I will.  First, I'd love to see David in the hall.  I watched him his whole career and would say that through most of it, he was the NL's best SS (until Ozzie took that honor).  But I don't think he can easily be called the best in the game.  First, from 1974-1984, Robin Yount played SS.  He couldn't compare to Davey in the field, but he was so much better offensively that I think you'd have to say he was the better player.  Second, Trammell's numbers are more than just a little better than David's; his lifetime OPs is about 90 pts higher.  It seems to me you just cannot fairly put one of these guys in and leave the other out, and I wonder if that doesn't work against both of them.  On Rizzuto and Reese, I'd put David between them.  His career's clearly better than Rizzuto's but not better than Reese's.  PeeWee's OPS is 64 pts higher than David's.  He had 2170 hits (Dave, 2326).  But Reese played all 16 years in the 154 era; that's 128 extra games he'd play under the 162, or almost a full season.  Then he missed 1943-1945, of course.  So to compare him to other SS's, you should add in a minimum of 500 more hits, bringing him close to 2700, a lock for an SS.  Here's another name to throw into the mix:  Dick Groat, 1952-1967, most of it with the Pirates.  .286/.330/.366/.696--better than Dave's in every category.  2138 total hits, but he missed all of 53 and 54 because of military service and also played 8 years under the 154.  Add in 2 and 1/2 years at average production and he's a guy with 2500 hits.  He was MVP the year the Pirates won the series, 1960, and his range factor was well above league averages. It seems to me that sometimes these comparisons actually work against players.  For instance, I'd say either Reese, Groat, Trammell, and Concepcion should all be in or only Reese should be in.  If Rizzuto should be in, they should all be in.  But since somebody objects to something about one of Groat, Trammell, Concepcion, he's unwilling to let either of the others go in.  So their similarities end up hurting one another.  I've often wondered if this isn't the case with Ron Santo and Ken Boyer, whose careers are extremely close, Santo's just a little better--but Boyer was so good that if you put Santo in, it just wouldn't seem right to leave Boyer out.  If Boyer had been just a little bit better, not only he, but Santo too, would both be in.  For younger readers of this who may not know these guys, look at the stretches they  had in mid-career for some great 3B numbers (and they had 11 Gold Gloves between them).

Yes, I saw Davey, and he was an exceptional defensive shortstop.  But his hitting, for the most part, was unexceptional.  He's borderline.  There are shortstops in the Hall worse than him, sure, but also guys better (like Trammell) who have not been elected.

 
Ken you clearly know what you're talking about and I respect your thoughts.  HokieRed, same thing.  Heck, I just appreciate the fact there's a Reds website for moron guys like us who still have hope that they'll be another Mike Lum (j/k).

Back to Davey...I guess I just lean on what I saw more than #'s .  Maybe I'm somewhat of a biased Reds fan from way back when, but when I watched Davey and compared him to the other SS's of his era (until Ozzie), he was the best.  When I say SS, I mean the defensive position first and foremost and not hitting or anything else.  The guy had style and grace and made all the plays with accuracy.  Forget about #'s for a minute, wasn't he a tad better than even Yount defensively.  I probably opened up a can of worms with that one huh?  Yount was a tremendously athletic player who went on to CF, which is unbelievable.  The fact that we're even talking about Davey is way cool to me.  Thanks